The Future of Predator Hunting.

I mentioned to my taxidermist a few years back that there don't seem to be as many coyotes anymore. He said "I wonder why, you have only been hammering them for the last 10 years".

There are very few this year, I killed 2 off of bait. My bait consists of 4 roadkill deer, it has not been touched in well over a month. The first year I had an alarm on it, I got 16 off the bait.

Populations come and go, with the down numbers I suspect there will be some coyote hunters that hang it up. I hope so, everybody and their brother hunts them anymore.
 
I do not believe they are any "smarter" but in areas where they are called heavily they will have more negative "associative" events. Pet memory explains two types of pet memory.

"Some people assume that dogs and cats aren’t capable of retaining memory over the years. Most people believe both species can only remember for a few minutes, at most. However, experts say that how long a dog or cat’s memory span is depends on whether you’re talking about short-term memory or long-term memory – associative memory or real memory.

Associative memory is when a dog or cat remembers by associating a specific activity with what they see, smell or hear, and whether they have a positive or negative memory of it...Pets pay close attention to every little thing we do, and their associative memory kicks in when something triggers it. Yet when there’s nothing to associate an action to, their real memory kicks in and they don’t remember what happens next."

So I don't see yotes any different - if they come to associate smells, gunshots, parked vehicles, etc. with negative experiences then they become "smarter". If a yote hears a gunshot 1/4 mile a way but has no negative experience it is not much different than thunder and it forgets about it shortly thereafter. The hard part if trying to figure out a positive association like what's happened in grizzly territory where they COME to the sounds of gunshots knowing a gutpile may be waiting for them.
 
I'm sure if it were to happen to where coyotes became harder to kill to the point that it completely changed the game it would take a long time. Longer than we'll probably be huntin. But it's something to ponder I suppose.
 
We try to rationalize everything. Coyotes (like all animals) do not have the ability or capacity for rational thought. They rely on instincts. Some of these instincts are passed on to the next generation because that's how genetics work. The ones who survive have offspring. It's not because they have learned so much, but because the coyotes born with the best survival instincts pass them on. The coyotes that circle a call to get the wind of the sound source probably start doing that after the first few times they hear a sound of interest. Think about it, if we can call coyotes, how many times a day do they come to or have interest in real animal sounds they encounter? It has to be on a fairly regular basis or calling would not work. Everyone talks about e-callers being so available and new callers educating coyotes, which is very true, but no one talks about the coyotes they do kill. It's hard to admit, especially when you have 20+ years of calling experience like me, but new guys with foxpros do go out and kill some also. And most likely the ones they kill are the easy ones. The ones we all talk about in this topic that seem to not be around anymore. Fact of matter is, more hunters = less dumb coyotes alive. Maybe it means a higher percent of the popular is educated also, but the smartest coyotes were always there. We just had enough dumb ones all to ourselves that hunting was easier.
 
Originally Posted By: iowayotehunter76We try to rationalize everything. Coyotes (like all animals) do not have the ability or capacity for rational thought. They rely on instincts. Some of these instincts are passed on to the next generation because that's how genetics work. The ones who survive have offspring. It's not because they have learned so much, but because the coyotes born with the best survival instincts pass them on. The coyotes that circle a call to get the wind of the sound source probably start doing that after the first few times they hear a sound of interest. Think about it, if we can call coyotes, how many times a day do they come to or have interest in real animal sounds they encounter? It has to be on a fairly regular basis or calling would not work. Everyone talks about e-callers being so available and new callers educating coyotes, which is very true, but no one talks about the coyotes they do kill. It's hard to admit, especially when you have 20+ years of calling experience like me, but new guys with foxpros do go out and kill some also. And most likely the ones they kill are the easy ones. The ones we all talk about in this topic that seem to not be around anymore. Fact of matter is, more hunters = less dumb coyotes alive. Maybe it means a higher percent of the popular is educated also, but the smartest coyotes were always there. We just had enough dumb ones all to ourselves that hunting was easier.
I didn't necessarily mean it like coyotes will think rationally and know exactly what a human is. But undoubtedly coyotes can become very hard to kill and it doesn't take much. I was more or less talking about bad experiences they've had with interactions with people to change habits to the point that there becomes more harder to kill coyotes until it's just a natural part of how a coyote behaves from the time they're born.
 
With the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".
 
Originally Posted By: G AndersonWith the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".
I agree with you to a point. I've personally done contest and although there are several coyotes taken during a contest I've found that not everyone will hunt in the same area or even the same state most of the time. To me it's no different than it is with no contest going on but a fur buyer comes to town every so often. Most contest only last a day or two. They're timed and people are trying to make quick stands. They comb over a lot of coyotes. I'd go so far as to say there are probably more coyotes educated than killed during a contest. That's going off of my personal experience with them.

When money is involved whether it's a fur buyer in the area or a contest every now and then there will be some hunting pressure. I'd go so far as to say fur prices being high makes huntin tougher than contest. If money wasn't involved there'd be less guys calling altogether.

You'd really hate it if contest went on with greyhounds like they do down here. They kill way,way,way more than anybody with a call ever thought about killing. There's no comparison.
 
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Originally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: G AndersonWith the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".
I agree with you to a point. I've personally done contest and although there are several coyotes taken during a contest I've found that not everyone will hunt in the same area or even the same state most of the time. To me it's no different than it is with no contest going on but a fur buyer comes to town every so often. Most contest only last a day or two. They're timed and people are trying to make quick stands. They comb over a lot of coyotes. I'd go so far as to say there are probably more coyotes educated than killed during a contest. That's going off of my personal experience with them.

When money is involved whether it's a fur buyer in the area or a contest every now and then there will be some hunting pressure. I'd go so far as to say fur prices being high makes huntin tougher than contest. If money wasn't involved there'd be less guys calling altogether.

You'd really hate it if contest went on with greyhounds like they do down here. They kill way,way,way more than anybody with a call ever thought about killing. There's no comparison.
Ya, we have our share of hound hunters too...not as bad as the every weekend contest though. And then you have the snowmobile hunters as well...run them down with a machine...real sporting! Between the 2 states I hunt, there is a contest going on if not every weekend, every other weekend within a 50-100 mile radius.
I agree that more may get educated than killed...but that is part of the problem too. It just stands to reason though that with this going on constantly, fewer coyotes will be seen or called in.
 
I can tell you this much, around here, at least during prime fur, resident coyotes are dang near impossible to kill. To date, I have not figured out how to out smart a resident coyote. It isn't that they're smarter, really, but they have far more advantages to use than a single human calling. Our resident coyotes survive by sticking to the thickest, nastiest stuff you could imaigine, and ONLY responding to a call at night...by staying in the woods and holding down that territory.

Other than pulling an all nighter and waiting in the woods for one to come by, I have no idea how to kill them.

My last stand I worked for two hours, set up right in the middle of a core area. I was watching my down wind side, and allowed them to get there if they so desired. After calling the woods for 2 hours (not consistently, but calling and waiting a very long time in silence) I made the trek out at dark. A herd of deer ran from where I suspected the coyote from, and I paused and waited. Nothing. When I got 15 feet from the truck, under the cover of absolute night, the coyote started challenging me.

I returned the challenge as I closed the distance, but it stayed put. Even in silence it refused to come investigate. I hadn't called this pack for a long time. Buggers never forget. Or, they're chickens.

As for the FoxPro comment...I LOVE the e-callers. They've made calling fox and transients in so much easier here. If people don't learn the art of the open reed here, you're not going to call in much, unless you have 200+ farms to hunt. I only have 60, and the open reed call has become my new go-to call. Nothing sounds like it, and it's like ringing a dinner bell for these predators.
 
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Originally Posted By: G AndersonWith the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".

I would NOT agree with your idea of shooting and leaving pheasants and quail just because you don't like coyote contests. That is wanton waste and in some states may be illegal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I can understand you not liking and agreeing with hunt contests. There are many different forms and techniques of hunting that I do not agree with or participate in.

But contests are NOT necessarily the reason you are not seeing coyotes. Sure, it would seem "logical" that contests would be the cause. But I have called plenty of coyotes in areas where contests have occurred and were actively occurring.

One year, at the PM Convention, I was out with my partner and we were trying to help Jeff, FW707, in calling in some coyotes. We called in one and Jeff shot it right near a water hole. We got our photos and were getting ready to roll out when two guys rolled in on us. They were participating in a hunting contest and said that they had just called that water hole an hour before. An hour can be a long time in coyote time. It gives them plenty of time to wander and roam. Chances were that this coyote wasn't close enough to hear them or they weren't calling with the right sounds or set up. I have called coyotes in within earshot of other callers, I could hear their calls.

There are so many variables and possible explanations as to why you are/are not seeing or calling coyotes. On years where we saw a lot of rabbits, we didn't see as many coyotes. This year, we are not seeing as many rabbits but the coyotes are all over. Last month we were calling them in about every other stand or so. This month, things have slowed down a bit. IS that a reason to hang up my caller? Nope. I just have to change up my tactics and try to spot the new pattern that will get me back into them.

I am sure there are MORE coyotes now than ever. Are they smarter? Probably not, since they still fall for the calls. But if they can find food that is easier to get, such as pets, fields, cattle, etc, then I am sure they are going to be a bit harder to call. But that is part of what makes this such a rewarding sport. Frustrating but rewarding.
 
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoOriginally Posted By: G AndersonWith the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".

I would NOT agree with your idea of shooting and leaving pheasants and quail just because you don't like coyote contests. That is wanton waste and in some states may be illegal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I can understand you not liking and agreeing with hunt contests. There are many different forms and techniques of hunting that I do not agree with or participate in.

But contests are NOT necessarily the reason you are not seeing coyotes. Sure, it would seem "logical" that contests would be the cause. But I have called plenty of coyotes in areas where contests have occurred and were actively occurring.

One year, at the PM Convention, I was out with my partner and we were trying to help Jeff, FW707, in calling in some coyotes. We called in one and Jeff shot it right near a water hole. We got our photos and were getting ready to roll out when two guys rolled in on us. They were participating in a hunting contest and said that they had just called that water hole an hour before. An hour can be a long time in coyote time. It gives them plenty of time to wander and roam. Chances were that this coyote wasn't close enough to hear them or they weren't calling with the right sounds or set up. I have called coyotes in within earshot of other callers, I could hear their calls.

There are so many variables and possible explanations as to why you are/are not seeing or calling coyotes. On years where we saw a lot of rabbits, we didn't see as many coyotes. This year, we are not seeing as many rabbits but the coyotes are all over. Last month we were calling them in about every other stand or so. This month, things have slowed down a bit. IS that a reason to hang up my caller? Nope. I just have to change up my tactics and try to spot the new pattern that will get me back into them.

I am sure there are MORE coyotes now than ever. Are they smarter? Probably not, since they still fall for the calls. But if they can find food that is easier to get, such as pets, fields, cattle, etc, then I am sure they are going to be a bit harder to call. But that is part of what makes this such a rewarding sport. Frustrating but rewarding.


My "Coyotes Forever" analogy was more of a tongue in cheek remark at why certain "chapters" were promoting these contests. I used to be involved in the various Bird Chapters and we had dinners and fundraisers...we didn't promote killing of one species to save "ours". I guess that is what chaps my a*%$ more than anything nowadays. Along with contests come the cheaters when money is involved and no matter what the rules are, some will bend/break them at all cost just to be the winner.
This can/does have an impact on the average Joe who just wants to go out and enjoy a weekend of coyote hunting.
I was simply responding to this post in regards to several people running into decreased numbers and very call shy animals. It is my take on just one possible reason why they may be experiencing difficulties in particular areas. Repeated "pounding" of the species every other weekend is definitely going to change things.
Yes, coyotes will still be harvested by the sportsman even with these "events" going on and a lot does depend on being in the right place at the right time.
 
I just talked to my buddy that traps a lot and is part of the local trappers association. They had a fur auction today there we have some very good coyote hunters around here. He talked to a few of them and most guys were way down on numbers compared to most other years. Everyone of them said this was a rough year. Our weather has been really weird don’t know if that’s to blame at all it was warm them cool warm them cool. Don’t know if that can affect them or not. I know a couple winters ago we had a rough winter was cold with a ton of snow don’t know if the population is still getting built back up just hard to say.
 
Mother Nature decides how many coyotes live in a certain area. So you have a limited number coyotes that can live in a area. But people are multiplying uncontrolled. I dont know why the population doesnt understand that we are going to if not already overpopulate the carrying capacity of this earth. More people and the same or smaller population (because of climate changes and not necessarily but maybe so caused by more people) of coyotes equal less opportunity to kill a coyote. The state of AZ has less coyotes simply by way of more red tile roofs. Add in the drought that has been happening for 2 decades equals less food for rabbits and coyotes. A lot of coyotes are eating more mesquite beans. So, you have more hunters with more technology equals more pressure on the smaller population of coyotes. It is the law of diminishing returns.

The overpopulation of this country buy invasion of other already overpopulated countries will make our way of life change for the worse by my way of thinking. When the country is full of invaders who will they vote in? The socialist or communists and then hunting will be gone for the average person. Then you all are going to say"wha happen".
 
Originally Posted By: ThomCThe overpopulation of this country buy invasion of other already overpopulated countries will make our way of life change for the worse by my way of thinking.


The Californian's have already done this to Utah.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: ThomCThe overpopulation of this country buy invasion of other already overpopulated countries will make our way of life change for the worse by my way of thinking.


The Californian's have already done this to Utah.

- DAA

And we are seeing it in Colorado!!!
 
Originally Posted By: G AndersonOriginally Posted By: SnowmanMoOriginally Posted By: G AndersonWith the increased number of "contests" every weekend, it is of little wonder why a lot are seeing less coyotes. When you have say 50 teams of 2 people running all over creation for an entire weekend, shooting out of vehicles, calling everywhere, shooting at and educating coyotes...they get vehicle shy, call shy and gun shy for sure. If the average harvest numbers are 25-50(often more) coyotes per contest, it won't take long before the numbers go way down in a given area. A lot of these "contests" are in the name of Quail Unlimited or Pheasants Forever...ya right! Foxes, cats(domestic as well as wild), coons, and loss of habitat do more to these birds than any coyotes. Once you make it a "contest", the sport of it goes out the window...take the money out of the "contest" and see what happens then.
I'm going to start a "Coyotes Forever" chapter and we are going to go shoot all the pheasants and quail we can(legally) and leave them lay so the coyotes don't have to work so hard to eat...bet the "bird chapters" wouldn't like that too much. I guess by now you know how I feel about "contests".

I would NOT agree with your idea of shooting and leaving pheasants and quail just because you don't like coyote contests. That is wanton waste and in some states may be illegal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I can understand you not liking and agreeing with hunt contests. There are many different forms and techniques of hunting that I do not agree with or participate in.

But contests are NOT necessarily the reason you are not seeing coyotes. Sure, it would seem "logical" that contests would be the cause. But I have called plenty of coyotes in areas where contests have occurred and were actively occurring.

One year, at the PM Convention, I was out with my partner and we were trying to help Jeff, FW707, in calling in some coyotes. We called in one and Jeff shot it right near a water hole. We got our photos and were getting ready to roll out when two guys rolled in on us. They were participating in a hunting contest and said that they had just called that water hole an hour before. An hour can be a long time in coyote time. It gives them plenty of time to wander and roam. Chances were that this coyote wasn't close enough to hear them or they weren't calling with the right sounds or set up. I have called coyotes in within earshot of other callers, I could hear their calls.

There are so many variables and possible explanations as to why you are/are not seeing or calling coyotes. On years where we saw a lot of rabbits, we didn't see as many coyotes. This year, we are not seeing as many rabbits but the coyotes are all over. Last month we were calling them in about every other stand or so. This month, things have slowed down a bit. IS that a reason to hang up my caller? Nope. I just have to change up my tactics and try to spot the new pattern that will get me back into them.

I am sure there are MORE coyotes now than ever. Are they smarter? Probably not, since they still fall for the calls. But if they can find food that is easier to get, such as pets, fields, cattle, etc, then I am sure they are going to be a bit harder to call. But that is part of what makes this such a rewarding sport. Frustrating but rewarding.


My "Coyotes Forever" analogy was more of a tongue in cheek remark at why certain "chapters" were promoting these contests. I used to be involved in the various Bird Chapters and we had dinners and fundraisers...we didn't promote killing of one species to save "ours". I guess that is what chaps my a*%$ more than anything nowadays. Along with contests come the cheaters when money is involved and no matter what the rules are, some will bend/break them at all cost just to be the winner.
This can/does have an impact on the average Joe who just wants to go out and enjoy a weekend of coyote hunting.
I was simply responding to this post in regards to several people running into decreased numbers and very call shy animals. It is my take on just one possible reason why they may be experiencing difficulties in particular areas. Repeated "pounding" of the species every other weekend is definitely going to change things.
Yes, coyotes will still be harvested by the sportsman even with these "events" going on and a lot does depend on being in the right place at the right time.

Oh, I can understand the frustration, and I figured you were just poking at the hunting contests. We have a good community of ethical hunters here. But I can understand, your out, trying to enjoy the outdoors when truck after truck of hunter comes bombing through. I feel the same frustration when side by sides come bombing through. This weekend we seemed to be pursued by them. On Saturday we ran into a group of 15 of them getting ready for an "outing." We left, but a few stands later here they come, right up and through one of our stands.

There are more people and more people are going to use more of the outdoors. I don't see it getting any better anytime soon.
 
As the population rises, pressure increases, and available resources shrink, I predict seasons, harvest limits, and tags/permits in our future. Not sure some of that would be all bad...let the flaming begin.
 
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