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#3185711 - 01/15/19 03:34 PM .223 not cutting it for coyotes
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Deciding to switch from .223 to .308, .223 will grenade a yote but offers no knockdown power. Thinking I'm going to run 20"+ target barrels on AR-10s and keep the AR-15 barrels short. The more domesticated these things become the bigger they get.

What good is a 20" barrel on a 2.23? Deciding whether or not to keep it. I want to see what lengths guys are running for .223/5.56 and .308 respectively. Think I will convert to target builds on AR-10s and keep the AR-15s practical

If anyone has an R15 handguard, I might be interested


Edited by Pantera (01/15/19 03:36 PM)

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#3185719 - 01/15/19 03:47 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
TripleDeuce660 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 2911
Loc: Las Vegas Nevada
What bullet are you shooting? I have no problems with 55 gr SPs. A lot of options with more knockdown without going to a 308.
_________________________
People who hug trees shouldn't live in wooden houses!


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#3185722 - 01/15/19 04:01 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: TripleDeuce660]
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
What bullet are you shooting? I have no problems with 55 gr SPs. A lot of options with more knockdown without going to a 308.


55gr Remington UMC softpoint, I've had better luck with a properly placed .17 HMR. Must be something in the water


Edited by Pantera (01/15/19 04:01 PM)

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#3185724 - 01/15/19 04:05 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: TripleDeuce660]
case-nh Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 673
Loc: Iowa
I have a RRA TRO 14.5" hand guard if interested.

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#3185729 - 01/15/19 04:21 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: case-nh]
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: case-nh
I have a RRA TRO 14.5" hand guard if interested.


PM sent

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#3185737 - 01/15/19 04:41 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
LARUEminati Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 1065
Loc: Western Massachusetts
Something isn't right here

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#3185738 - 01/15/19 04:41 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
arlaunch Online
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/09/17
Posts: 298
Loc: OR
It has never crossed my mind one time that .223 Rem could not kill a Coyote effectively.

My thinking would be to change bullet types.
_________________________
Be consistent with your loading, practice your shooting, speak the truth, love your family and you will be rewarded.

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#3185742 - 01/15/19 04:56 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: arlaunch]
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: arlaunch
It has never crossed my mind one time that .223 Rem could not kill a Coyote effectively.

My thinking would be to change bullet types.




I have ended up having to track every single yote I have shot with a .223, these are shoulder, stomach, and hind leg shots. I have seen them run with their intestines dragging behind them, and my partners and I can only boil it down to the areas we hunt must be somewhat trafficked by other hunters, and the yotes are familiar with the sound of a gunshot; adrenaline kicks in and they are gone. My partner shot a coon with a .223 and we had to track for a half a mile. Finishing it with a .45 to the head was satisfying.

.223 is feeling more and more like a peashooter to me. It certainly will kill a coyote, but it has no knockdown power. I'm looking for something to coyotes what a .223 is to rabbits


Edited by Pantera (01/15/19 05:07 PM)

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#3185748 - 01/15/19 05:08 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Bowhntr6pt Online
Die Hard Member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 644
Loc: Central Florida
I'd just build an upper in 6.8 SPC vs. the weight/cost of the large frames.

I have six large frame AR rifles 16, 18, and 24 all in .308... I don't take them coyote hunting as my 6.8 is a DRT rifle using 120gr SST bullets.

I guarantee you the Speer 70gr Semi-Spitzer will solve your run-off problems if you stay with .223.

Check this video out... three DRT'S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJmKMxWuUdw

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#3185750 - 01/15/19 05:19 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Bowhntr6pt]
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6pt
I'd just build an upper in 6.8 SPC vs. the weight/cost of the large frames.

I have six large frame AR rifles 16, 18, and 24 all in .308... I don't take them coyote hunting as my 6.8 is a DRT rifle using 120gr SST bullets.

I guarantee you the Speer 70gr Semi-Spitzer will solve your run-off problems if you stay with .223.

Check this video out... three DRT'S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJmKMxWuUdw


Sweet video. I think my issue with .223 might come from the grain

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#3185752 - 01/15/19 05:34 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
SlickerThanSnot Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/14
Posts: 4974
Loc: stuck in a fence
these 223 wont kill a 25 pound coyote threads are always good for some laughs.
_________________________
if you shoot a 223 at coyotes you may father children with 6 toes. are you willing to chance that?

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#3185755 - 01/15/19 05:36 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: SlickerThanSnot]
Pantera Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 03/02/16
Posts: 141
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnot
these 223 wont kill a 25 pound coyote threads are always good for some laughs.

Long time no see Snot I see you are still active

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#3185762 - 01/15/19 05:42 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
bomberhat Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/30/12
Posts: 126
Loc: WA
aim for the face,or just stick with your 17 HMR if that works better for you.


Edited by bomberhat (01/15/19 05:43 PM)

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#3185763 - 01/15/19 05:44 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
Shoulder, guts, legs, it isn't the 223 that is the problem.

If they hear the gunshot, you missed.

Coyote aren't very tough if you shoot them where you are suppose to with a decent bullet, they are tougher than [beeep] if you use the wrong bullet or shoot the fringes.

I have no problems with a 222 Rem and a decent bullet.


Edited by AWS (01/15/19 05:51 PM)
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3185766 - 01/15/19 05:53 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
The Surgeon Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/27/14
Posts: 65
Loc: Pin High
I've shot all 11 of my coyotes with a .223 55 Grain V-Max. I did have one that ran off that I couldn't find but I believe I had poor shot placement on that one. The rest were DRT.

Casey

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#3185769 - 01/15/19 06:29 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Rock Knocker Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 3012
Loc: Buffalo, MN
.17 HMR is the ticket as long as you keep the shots under 643 yards.

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#3185771 - 01/15/19 06:31 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
steve garrett Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 2176
Loc: tx
OK 223 is weak for coyotes but every one running off? how many did you shoot? don't get me wrong I do need some finishing shots on coyotes too. but I normally only outright loose maybe 1 or 2 a year and that is because I am more hesitant to put finishers in them. a facing solid chest hit aught to dump them. I mean sure go 308, but there are other options if you can go 243 in AR 10 that would also be an upgun situation.
_________________________
LONG LIVE THE GREAT GHOST OF THE HIGH DESERT.........THE COYOTE

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#3185775 - 01/15/19 06:36 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
jsh Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 183
Loc: Kansas U.S. of A
20" to short, I have killed a fair number with 12" and 14" Contender using a 50 grain BK, any where from 50-300 yards.

I avoided shoulders,guts and legs though. A wild critters will to live and or escape should never be under estimated, no matter the size.

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#3185782 - 01/15/19 07:04 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
greengt88 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 08/21/13
Posts: 1585
Loc: york pa
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement...end of discussion.

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#3185794 - 01/15/19 08:25 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
LARUEminati Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 1065
Loc: Western Massachusetts
Get yourself a quality box of ammo then report back, remington 55gr umc is a joke. Thats for punching paper, inaccurately.

A quality box of 223 is still less than cheap 308 ammo. Doesnt sound like you reload.

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#3185797 - 01/15/19 08:29 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: The Surgeon]
LARUEminati Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 1065
Loc: Western Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: The Surgeon
I've shot all 11 of my coyotes with a .223 55 Grain V-Max. I did have one that ran off that I couldn't find but I believe I had poor shot placement on that one. The rest were DRT.

Casey


Using quality ammunition.

Nice job. Keep stackin em

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#3185802 - 01/15/19 08:59 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: LARUEminati]
SixsixtyMags Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/01/16
Posts: 612
Loc: Pocono Mts.Pa.
Was recently watching PA outdoors and was surprised at the # of youth hunters that shot deer with a .223. If a .223 can kill a deer it certainly can kill a coyote, shot placement and bullet type are where to start. If you want to go bigger I would go to a .243, and if that doesn't work my next choice would be a .35 Whelen loaded with .357 240gr Hornady XTP jacketed hollow points, they shouldn't go anywhere then! laugh

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#3185817 - 01/15/19 09:31 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
If I was going AR 10 I would go 22" 243.
It would be like a meat saw. As a matter of fact I have an upper on backorder.
22 Nosler and 50s at 3600 is doing the trick for me though. 223 is a little weak for marginal hits. I like an edge when I can get it.


Edited by varminter .223 (01/15/19 09:36 PM)

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#3185824 - 01/15/19 09:57 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
reb8600 Offline
Director

Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 10706
Loc: Morgan, Utah
Bad shots and it is a caliber problem??? Bigger caliber isnít going to help if you canít make good shots


Edited by reb8600 (01/16/19 12:02 AM)

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#3185835 - 01/15/19 10:08 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: reb8600]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
I don't know about that, 243 slinging 75s at max speed will pick a up a bit of the slack lol.


Edited by varminter .223 (01/15/19 10:09 PM)

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#3185853 - 01/15/19 10:57 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
OKRattler Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 3236
Loc: Ok Panhandle
It's surprising a shot to the shoulder with softpoints isn't going through and hitting the important stuff. I've always had really good luck with SP's in my .223's. Then again I don't believe I've shot any of that particular brand.

I don't know what would remedy the shots to the guts and legs without the same result. I've seen them run away after taking a hit from the .308,243,22-250 and some others with hits to the gut. Anything from rib cage to the head have always had the best results for me. If you're shooting them walking or running straight away from you and want them dead on the spot I'd go with a .243 or .308 but that's just me.



Edited by OKRattler (01/15/19 11:03 PM)
_________________________
I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to eat carrots.

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#3185867 - 01/15/19 11:39 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
DiRTY DOG Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 2585
Loc: West
Originally Posted By: Pantera
55gr Remington UMC softpoint, I've had better luck with a properly placed .17 HMR.
I agree with your assessment that you'd be better off with a properly placed 17HMR than with poorly placed UMC softpoints in the stomach and legs.
_________________________
Aim small miss small.

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#3185887 - 01/16/19 07:43 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
deaddogwalkin Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2331
Loc: SE Iowa
If you don't reload and want to go to something bigger but stay in the AR15 instead of go to the AR10 take look at the 6.5grendel. But use quality ammo. Heck the they also make a nice raccoon round also.

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#3185908 - 01/16/19 09:26 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
cjclemens Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/15/14
Posts: 281
Loc: IL
I've gone as light as 45 grain Sierra Varminters, and still haven't had any problems with .223 getting the job done. Even if my shot placement is off, coyotes I've hit tend to do that thing where they run in a circle and try to bite whatever bit them - and that usually gives me enough time to send a couple more. I can honestly say I've never tagged a raccoon with a .223, but the last time I hit a possum, it left a .22 entry wound and a pile of entrails on the other side. I gotta agree with everyone else here. You might need to try different ammo. Sure, I've had some rifles that shoot Remington UMC OK, but I've always had doubts about the terminal performance of those really cheap bullets.

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#3185942 - 01/16/19 12:08 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
A little side note

Rem 308 150gr SP's

I was still hunting deer in northern WI and spotted a nice buck working his way down a ridge toward me so hunkered down and waited as he passed me I shot him at 8 feet in the chest right behind the elbow, perfect hear/lung shot. He took off like a scalded cat, I couldn't believe he didn't drop or at least show signs of being hit, I didn't even take a second shot expecting him to drop. Good snow I thought I'd track him and get a second chance. About 40 yards away I started seeing flecks of blood on the snow at 60 some large patches that looked like he was coughing it up and another 40 yards and he was laying in the snow with a wound on his side the size of a dinner plate at first thought it was an exit wound and I actually stood there looking for another hunter after thinking about that I hadn't heard a shot examined the deer a little further and found the bullet had splashed on a rib and just a few pieces of jacket has sliced through the lungs. I wrote it up to being way to close. I drug him back to the truck and headed out with a couple more doe tags in my pocket.

I picked up a nice set of tracks and started to work them. A couple hours into it I could see the doe and yearling were going into thick black spruce thickets and circling to the downwind side and circling back behind me as I followed them through. I finally got to one of the thickets and started in then backed out and circled to the down wind side and waited and sure enough here they come walking straight to me watching the thicket at 20 yards I held on her neck in a straight line to the top of the heart, she went down but when I got to her it looked like someone had taped an M-80 to her throat and blew out a chunk of meat and wind pipe the size of a large softball. When gutting her there was zero penetration another bullet had exploded with out penetrating.

After I got her to the truck I tossed the rest of the ammo in the creek and went to town and found a box of my beloved 180gr RN's. Everything was just fine after that, never could get myself to use 150gr SP out of a 308 after that. They were Remington 308 150gr SP's, their 180gr RN's worked fine.

So even a bullet that sounds like it should be perfect for the job sometimes fails, maybe you just had a bad batch.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3185958 - 01/16/19 12:43 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
newcoyotehunter Online
Predator Master

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: SW, IN
Couldn't agree more with everyone, .223 with 55 gr vmax for me, hardly ever have one run. You very well may find that bigger isn't always better. I was running a 6.5 grendel with 95 gr ballistic tips last year. Seemed like 1 out of every 2 I shot would run a ways. What I came to learn was the heavier bullet was pinholing right through several of them. This year i switched back to .223 and have only had 1 coyote of 30 run which i believe was a poor shot on my part at 300 yds.

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#3185970 - 01/16/19 02:07 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: reb8600]
6724 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 2851
Loc: colorado
Originally Posted By: reb8600
Bad shots and it is a caliber problem??? Bigger caliber isnít going to help if you canít make good shots


Truth right there.

I have killed a couple hundred coyotes with a 223. I've lost a few, but not many. But, now I use a 17-223, haven't lost one yet out of about 40 them.

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#3185987 - 01/16/19 03:15 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: SlickerThanSnot]
R. Toker Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 218
Loc: Ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnot
these 223 wont kill a 25 pound coyote threads are always good for some laughs.


That's where you're wrong. That coyote was at least 55 pounds!
_________________________
MY Equipment:

FoxPro CS24C

Stag Arms - 5.56mm - Hornady 55gr VMax
- Burris Mtac 1x-4x Ill Reticle
Spikes Tactical - .300 Blackout 110gr Vmax
- Vortex Diamondback HP 2x8x32

Night Eyes Hunting Lights




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#3185995 - 01/16/19 03:41 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: R. Toker]
Brad Phillips Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 1077
Loc: Gilbertville, IA
Originally Posted By: R. Toker
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnot
these 223 wont kill a 25 pound coyote threads are always good for some laughs.


That's where you're wrong. That coyote was at least 55 pounds!


And was wearing a bandana, he was one tough mother trucker.
_________________________
"No free lunch internet answer can answer that" pahntr760

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#3186003 - 01/16/19 04:00 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
SnowmanMo Offline
Director/Moderator

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 3268
Loc: Phoenix, Az
I shot a lot of coyotes with both a 16in .223 and an 18in .223 using Hornady 55gr Vmax's for a long time. When we saw runners we switched to the SP's and that worked.

But I also run a 16in .308 AR and love it using the 150gr SP's.
_________________________


Mama always said, coyotes are like a box of chocolates...



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#3186069 - 01/16/19 08:05 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
nightcaller Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1183
Loc: UT
I would think a box of hornady ammo would solve your problem.

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#3186090 - 01/16/19 09:24 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
tnvarmint Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Johnson City, TN
I am with most everyone else here. Seems more of a shot placement problem than caliber problem. I would dare say that there are more coyotes killed each year with the 223/556 round than any other round.

Without getting into a huge debate over this following comment, I will also point out that it is currently the round of choice of the US military and military and LE around the world. Although not the most effective combat round and yes there has been a lot of debate about its effectiveness on the battlefield, fact is it does its job decently against 200 lbs targets and that is with military crap ball ammo and not modern BT ammo. I have no doubt it will take down a 25-40 lbs coyote or other predator with even moderately accurate shot placement.

That being said, I currently use an Ar in 6.8 SPC. It's my latest AR build and love the round so far. I would definitely check shot placement before ditching the 223/556 and then if still not satisfied, look at other AR-15 calibers like the 6.8 SPC among others before switching to the heavier, more expensive AR-10 platform.
_________________________
Thanks and God Bless,
Michael

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#3186101 - 01/16/19 09:32 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
tnvarmint Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Johnson City, TN
I also want to add this. Don't take it that folks here are saying you are a bad shot. It could possibly be just simple practice is needed. So many of us, myself included at times, go to the range and shoot MOA or even sub-MOA groups off of a nice stable rest or bi-pod and never practice off-hand or shooting sticks both standing and sitting.

I am no competition shooter but I can get between 0.5 and 1 inch groups out of all of my hunting rifles off the rest. That group gets larger when shooting off-hand or from shooting sticks and even worse depending on my sitting position. All too often we have to take a somewhat hurried shot in the field with less than optimal shooting stance and such which will result in less than accurate shots. Practice these real world shooting positions so that you are more prepared when in the field.


Edited by tnvarmint (01/16/19 09:33 PM)
_________________________
Thanks and God Bless,
Michael

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#3186184 - 01/17/19 06:01 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
willy1947 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 3026
Loc: Ohio, Ohio



I am old school, I like seeing them blow up.
When, they get hit with my 220 Swift.
PINK MIST was invented by the swift.
I load 45 OP @ 3.950/4,000fps.
56 years shooting and loading the swift.
On my 3rd rifle, 2 model 70's and now a ruger 77.
I load a Barnes 223 grenade bullet that is good in a 223 rem. powder metal.
My walking around rifle is a Yogo, Mini Mauser in 223, Interarms.
_________________________
Writing in this blog is like guessing, the color of a pig in a poke. You are wrong a lot more than you are right.
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NRA Life Member

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#3186217 - 01/17/19 09:45 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: tnvarmint]
SnowmanMo Offline
Director/Moderator

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 3268
Loc: Phoenix, Az
Originally Posted By: tnvarmint
I also want to add this. Don't take it that folks here are saying you are a bad shot. It could possibly be just simple practice is needed. So many of us, myself included at times, go to the range and shoot MOA or even sub-MOA groups off of a nice stable rest or bi-pod and never practice off-hand or shooting sticks both standing and sitting.

I am no competition shooter but I can get between 0.5 and 1 inch groups out of all of my hunting rifles off the rest. That group gets larger when shooting off-hand or from shooting sticks and even worse depending on my sitting position. All too often we have to take a somewhat hurried shot in the field with less than optimal shooting stance and such which will result in less than accurate shots. Practice these real world shooting positions so that you are more prepared when in the field.


Excellent comment! Sometimes it is hard to accurately impart the right emotion into our comments when we use the electronic medium.

I make plenty of "less than ideal" shots. I have had situations where I placed, what I felt, was a "perfect shot" only to have a coyote turn and run. In the last video I posted, I had a dead square on chest shot that, for whatever reason, ended up blowing out the side of the coyote. Shouldn't have happened, I was squared up on the coyote, but it did. Sure, it's going to shake your confidence. But I have plenty of dead coyotes that have taken hits form that rifle and were DRT. So I am not going to abandon my tried and true rifle/ammo combo and go try to find the holy bullet grail. I am just going to try hard to make the best shot I can.

Originally Posted By: willy1947



I am old school, I like seeing them blow up.
When, they get hit with my 220 Swift.
PINK MIST was invented by the swift.
I load 45 OP @ 3.950/4,000fps.
56 years shooting and loading the swift.
On my 3rd rifle, 2 model 70's and now a ruger 77.
I load a Barnes 223 grenade bullet that is good in a 223 rem. powder metal.
My walking around rifle is a Yogo, Mini Mauser in 223, Interarms.




Me too Willy. I may not be as "old school" as some, but there is something SO satisfying about that meat slap...
_________________________


Mama always said, coyotes are like a box of chocolates...



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#3186225 - 01/17/19 10:43 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
SlickerThanSnot Online
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 01/31/14
Posts: 4974
Loc: stuck in a fence
hmmmm, i have killed many coyotes with a 220 swift and its lil brother the 22-250. i never had either one "pink mist" or "blow up" a coyote. at least not what i or the guys i hang with consider pink mist or blow up.

but a prairie dog, rock chuck or jack rabbit, yeah baby. smile

_________________________
if you shoot a 223 at coyotes you may father children with 6 toes. are you willing to chance that?

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#3186308 - 01/17/19 05:37 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
tnvarmint Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Johnson City, TN
Just to add a little to my previous comment, within the last 24 hours or so, a popular youtuber that I watch posted a video where he was hunting deer in Mexico. I forget the exact range at which he took the shot but it was a good distance and off of a fairly stable tri-pod for a rest. He missed the shot.

I won't mention his channel name because I don't wan't this to be construed as an advertisement for him, but he is an US Army sniper veteran. He knows how to make a shot, especially when it counts. But even the "best of the best" miss occasionally and have nobody but themselves to blame. For the rest of us "average joes", we might miss more than occasionally, especially without putting the proper time in at the range, practicing all shooting stances.

For him, it wasn't about the rifle or caliber choice, he simply messed up and pulled off a bad shot.
_________________________
Thanks and God Bless,
Michael

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#3186327 - 01/17/19 07:00 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: tnvarmint]
case-nh Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 673
Loc: Iowa
Out of 150 coyotes taken in the last 2 years with 55 grain V-Max reloaded by a veteran who runs a commercial reloading and gun shop hear in eastern Iowa (FarrosLeadFarm.com ; check him out, great prices on ammo, firearms, etc.). I've had 3 unrecovered coyotes. They made it to deep heavy cover where I lost them. Only took a few second shots to finish the job on a few. Estimate 30 to 40% are dead and just don't know it. Run 30 to 100 yds. being lung to heart shot and then drop. I've been hunting exclusively at night now.

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#3186372 - 01/17/19 08:43 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
EddiePA Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/19/18
Posts: 3
Loc: PA
55gr. UMC SP is a slow expanding projectile. In a coyote, it may not be expanding much, if at all. This is a projectile selection issue, not a cartridge selection issue.

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#3187086 - 01/20/19 11:46 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
mcseal2 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 160
Loc: KS
I agree with the others on shot placement. A 223 takes better shot placement to anchor a coyote than say a 70 or 75 grain Ballistic Tip or V max from a 243. It does the job well though with a good shot.

For practice I like shooting the polymer ball targets that roll when hit. I use two of them and shoot one then the other, switch back and forth. Doing that from my sticks makes me set the sticks and find the ball in the scope every shot. It's darn good practice. When doing it don't only shoot angles that are comfortable, shoot ones that aren't too. I find that shooting to my right as a right handed shooter is tough so I practice it more than most. I set up on coyotes for a shot in front of me or to my left so I don't have to make the tough shots as often.

The difference between a 16" and 20" barrel for me was about 200fps with the same brand 55gr V max ammo in a couple of different AR's. The 16" barrel shot it 2750fps, the 20" 2964fps. It's not a perfect comparison since it was two different barrels.

The 20" barrel shot the 53gr Hornady Superformance ammo 3286fps but the rifle didn't like it. I am shooting it from my Savage Hog Hunter bolt gun and it shoots great from it.

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#3187944 - 01/23/19 11:08 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
woodcutter Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/22/19
Posts: 13
Loc: wyoming
I have never had a problem killing a coyote with 223, using 52 gr Serria hollow points and 53 gr Hornandy match bullets, don't matter what you shoot them with if you hit them in the leg or just break a shoulder, I have killed several at 400 yards no problem

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#3187945 - 01/23/19 11:12 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
woodcutter Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/22/19
Posts: 13
Loc: wyoming
I have 6mm ackely improved necked down to .224, shooting 55 gr bullets close 4000fps and it is no more deadly than the 223, just got to make a good shot on them

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#3190709 - 02/04/19 11:25 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
willy1947 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 3026
Loc: Ohio, Ohio

But hunting I have found the white box Winchester 45gr @ 3600FPS is a good hunting round.

Hold the Fort I just found some white box Winchester 40grain poly tipped @ 3700FPS at MidwayUSA.

Then again shot placement is the whole story.




Edited by willy1947 (02/04/19 11:52 AM)
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#3209401 - 08/06/19 07:24 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Dultimatpredator Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 2379
Loc: Wisconsin
Every coyote Iíve shot with a 223 has been bang flops except for one due to poor shot placement. I hit it high across the back. Never did recover it. I saw it the next day in the same area limping with a moon shape chunk missing out it.

My load 60 grain vmax with 25 grains of benchmark. Runs 2850 FPS out of my 14.5Ē POF and about another 125 FPS faster out of my 20Ē LTR.

Extremely poor shot placement is your problem as everyone who read the post can clearly see and have told you. Any plastic tipped bullet is your friend with this caliber. Aim for the shoulder on standing coyotes and they wonít go anywhere. If you canít stop them to stop for standing still shot then donít shoot. Youíll harvest less dogs but at least your DRT count will rise. Iíd tell you practice, practice, practice...or leave the rifle at home and pick up a shotgun along with some lead BB shot.


Edited by Dultimatpredator (08/09/19 07:42 AM)

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#3209407 - 08/06/19 08:42 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Coyotejunki Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 4786
Loc: MO
Originally Posted By: Pantera
.223 will grenade a yote but offers no knockdown power.


This doesn't make sense to me. It'll blow them up but not make them fall down?
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#3209417 - 08/06/19 11:11 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
DoubleUp Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/18/10
Posts: 2445
Loc: USA
Here's a couple of quick videos of coyotes shot with an Stag AR-15 with 16" barrel. Load was 50 gr. V-max at about 3,100 fps. Range 100 yds.



Here is another one, same rifle same load.



It's not the caliber that is the problem. Put good ammo where it is supposed to go, and you will get good results.
_________________________
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He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Psalm 2:4




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#3209421 - 08/07/19 06:42 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
ackleyman Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 8382
Loc: Hickville
We killed a house full of coyotes with this load, very fur friendly:

55g Winchester sp
26.5g of Win 748
3100 fps out of a 24" barrel

Dogs flop

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#3209482 - 08/07/19 10:19 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
arlaunch Online
Seasoned Member

Registered: 04/09/17
Posts: 298
Loc: OR
This guy is just looking for a reason to buy a new rifle.

After the .308 he will tell his wife that he nicked the Coyote's paw and it still ran off.

Then he can say "honey, the .308 is no good for these Californian Coyotes"

I need a 50 BMG for close range and a .338 Lapua Mag for the ones that are a little farther.

Wifey says "you don't want to hurt the Coyote" Go ahead!
_________________________
Be consistent with your loading, practice your shooting, speak the truth, love your family and you will be rewarded.

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#3209509 - 08/08/19 09:59 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Dultimatpredator]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 15213
Loc: S. Texas
Originally Posted By: Dultimatpredator
Every coyote Iíve shot with a 223 has been bang flops except for one due to poor shot placement. I hit it high across the back. Never did recover it. I saw it the next day in the same area limping with a moon shape chunk missing out it.

My load 60 grain vmax with 25 grains of benchmark. Runs 2850 FPS out of my 14.5Ē POF and about another 125 FPS faster out of my 20Ē LTR.

Extremely poor shot placement is your problem as everyone who read the post can clearly see and have told you. Any plastic tipped bullet is your friend with this caliber. Aim for the shoulder on standing coyotes and they wonít go anywhere. If you canít them to stop then donít shoot. Youíll harvest less dogs but at least your DRT count will rise. Iíd tell you practice, practice, practice...or leave the rifle at home and pick up a shotgun along with some lead BB shot.


This ^^^^^

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Pantera
.223 will grenade a yote but offers no knockdown power.


This doesn't make sense to me. It'll blow them up but not make them fall down?


Kills them dead but doesn't knock them off their feet.

Quote:
It's not the caliber that is the problem. Put good ammo where it is supposed to go, and you will get good results.


ETA: Ummmm, after thinkin' about it, you're absolutely right; the 223 is no good for coyotes. Maybe you should check out
REAL COYOTE RIFLE, for those really big un's and a lot more. (shameful plug blushing )

Regards,
hm


Edited by hm1996 (08/08/19 10:08 AM)
_________________________
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If My people will humble themselves, pray, seek My face & turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven & will forgive their sin & heal their land.




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#3209545 - 08/08/19 10:35 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: DoubleUp]
Dultimatpredator Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 2379
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: DoubleUp
Here's a couple of quick videos of coyotes shot with an Stag AR-15 with 16" barrel. Load was 50 gr. V-max at about 3,100 fps. Range 100 yds.



Here is another one, same rifle same load.



It's not the caliber that is the problem. Put good ammo where it is supposed to go, and you will get good results.



Thatís awesome! Gotta use my photon XT one of these days! Bought it and never used it.

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#3210290 - 08/17/19 06:01 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Jim Byers Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/30/16
Posts: 397
Loc: Montana
The many deer, antelope and an elk I've killed with the ol 223 should have read this thread, then maybe they wouldn't have died..
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#3210298 - 08/17/19 07:22 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Dultimatpredator]
steve garrett Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 2176
Loc: tx
Originally Posted By: Dultimatpredator
Originally Posted By: DoubleUp
Here's a couple of quick videos of coyotes shot with an Stag AR-15 with 16" barrel. Load was 50 gr. V-max at about 3,100 fps. Range 100 yds.



Here is another one, same rifle same load.



It's not the caliber that is the problem. Put good ammo where it is supposed to go, and you will get good results.



Thatís awesome! Gotta use my photon XT one of these days! Bought it and never used it.


what are you shooting those out of a heated deer stand with a concrete shooting bench in it. yeah if I have that much time to make a shoot, a 22 LR would probably get the job done.

no one thinks if things go perfect with the shot a 223 can't work. The problem is most hunters don't make perfect hits everytime. When you have shot 100's of coyotes with 22-250's or 243's and been there when others have done it. Then you see yourself and others needing more and more finishing shots with 223's the only conclusion is it aint nuff gun sometimes.
_________________________
LONG LIVE THE GREAT GHOST OF THE HIGH DESERT.........THE COYOTE

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#3210302 - 08/17/19 08:10 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
ackleyman Offline
PM senior

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 8382
Loc: Hickville
If you want to see a coyote get blown up, shoot a sierra 55g lead tip blitz with a hot load of benchmark, N135, 3350+.

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#3210303 - 08/17/19 08:37 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: steve garrett]
DoubleUp Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/18/10
Posts: 2445
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: steve garrett
Originally Posted By: Dultimatpredator
Originally Posted By: DoubleUp
Here's a couple of quick videos of coyotes shot with an Stag AR-15 with 16" barrel. Load was 50 gr. V-max at about 3,100 fps. Range 100 yds.



Here is another one, same rifle same load.



It's not the caliber that is the problem. Put good ammo where it is supposed to go, and you will get good results.



Thatís awesome! Gotta use my photon XT one of these days! Bought it and never used it.


what are you shooting those out of a heated deer stand with a concrete shooting bench in it. yeah if I have that much time to make a shoot, a 22 LR would probably get the job done.

no one thinks if things go perfect with the shot a 223 can't work. The problem is most hunters don't make perfect hits everytime. When you have shot 100's of coyotes with 22-250's or 243's and been there when others have done it. Then you see yourself and others needing more and more finishing shots with 223's the only conclusion is it aint nuff gun sometimes.


Actually I have shot hundreds with everything from a 17 Rem to 308 Win. My favorite caliber is the 243 with either a 55 gr. Nosler or 58 V-max, but for most of my night calling I use an AR in 6x45 with the 55 gr. Nosler BT, but right now I am shooting an AR in 223 with 50 gr. V-max for calling. I get tired of shooting the same thing all the time.
_________________________
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He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Psalm 2:4




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#3210310 - 08/17/19 10:21 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: ackleyman]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Originally Posted By: ackleyman
If you want to see a coyote get blown up, shoot a sierra 55g lead tip blitz with a hot load of benchmark, N135, 3350+.

I have thermal video of this. Looks like a Rage commercial where the blood flies on impact.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/17/19 10:34 PM)

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#3210320 - 08/18/19 12:48 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: steve garrett]
DiRTY DOG Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 2585
Loc: West
Originally Posted By: steve garrett

The problem is most hunters don't make perfect hits everytime. When you have shot 100's of coyotes with 22-250's or 243's and been there when others have done it. Then you see yourself and others needing more and more finishing shots with 223's the only conclusion is it aint nuff gun sometimes.

The OTHER only conclusion is it aint enough marksmanship sometimes.
_________________________
Aim small miss small.

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#3210334 - 08/18/19 10:02 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
nightcaller Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1183
Loc: UT
Completely agree! Some of you guys should probably spend a little more time at the range shooting from "hunting" positions. I have a hard time with some of you that have never spent the time to be proficient enough with your guns to kill small animals. If you can't hit a pop can at 100yds from your sticks or bipod 20/20 times then you are not an "ethical" hunter and should either practice more or find another Hobbie. 223 is plenty! It's not the caliber that lacks its the trigger finger.

Now let's see some puffed out chests and bruised egos that won't admit they suck!

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#3210337 - 08/18/19 10:30 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
If someone can hit a pop can 20/20 times off sticks, maybe they should go to the convention, enter the egg shoot and win a new rifle. Not saying it can't be done, just a pretty tall order to fill.

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#3210338 - 08/18/19 10:30 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Like all forms of hunting you don't have to be a very good shot to hit a critter at most calling distance. The issue lies in rushing the shot and not settling the crosshairs or sight pin. It's about nerves and has little or nothing to do with folks not being able to hit a pop can at 100 yards. The other issue is plain and simple a lot of guys are using the Whitetail shot placement mentality on coyotes behind the shoulder and that doesn't work 100% of the time on coyotes. You can put a fist-sized hole through one there and they'll still run. But when the nerves kick in and you go into what some guys will call autopilot the crosshairs automatically settled back there behind the shoulder for a lot of guys me included. Coyotes are a funny critter when it comes to shop placement seems a pop gun will kill him if you hit him just right but you can run a train through em behind the shoulder and they'll still run.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/18/19 10:37 AM)

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#3210339 - 08/18/19 10:35 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
reaper4 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/25/14
Posts: 1885
Loc: maryland eastern shore
I never saw the need for anything bigger than a .22 cal when day hunting until I started hunting with thermal. When you hunt with thermal, you need a bigger gun lol
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Jeremy

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#3210340 - 08/18/19 10:39 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
I think another thing that guys out west don't take into account is they see and get an opportunity to shoot a lot of coyotes and can possibly remain more calm with the added experience from many more shot opportunities. I know most guys over here towards Illinois lose their ever-loving mind when a coyote gets into range in the daylight. They want nothing more than to kill that coyote but the chances are few and far between. It's 99% mental.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/18/19 10:40 AM)

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#3210341 - 08/18/19 10:51 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
reaper4 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/25/14
Posts: 1885
Loc: maryland eastern shore
Maybe but I started hunting coyotes in Texas and feel like my nerves are pretty solid. I donít get jumpy when a coyote appears and I have lost a few too many with a 223 at night.

Aside from that, as a contest hunter, if a coyote takes more than one step, he has gone too far after the shot. I donít care how good of a shot you are , a coyote will run from time to time when he gets hit with a 223. Thatís not acceptable for contest hunting. I think we are looking for different thinks out of the round. Iíd i was day hunting for pleasure, there would be no need for anything more than the old 223 rem
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#3210342 - 08/18/19 11:03 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: reaper4]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Oh I agree 100% my post wasn't directed at yours. We have a few runners at night as well. I shoot either a 22" 6x6.8 or 22 Nosler. Added a 243 Ar10 this spring. At night we will shoot several on the run too.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/18/19 11:05 AM)

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#3210347 - 08/18/19 12:10 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: pyscodog]
nightcaller Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1183
Loc: UT
Psycho dog, you're the kind of person I'm talking to. You should stop hunting or go practice. Maybe then you'd have a few thousand less posts and a lot fewer missed or wounded animals. If you can't hit the can 20/20 you should be embarrassed!


Edited by nightcaller (08/18/19 12:12 PM)

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#3210349 - 08/18/19 12:20 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: varminter .223]
nightcaller Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1183
Loc: UT
Originally Posted By: varminter .223
I think another thing that guys out west don't take into account is they see and get an opportunity to shoot a lot of coyotes and can possibly remain more calm with the added experience from many more shot opportunities. I know most guys over here towards Illinois lose their ever-loving mind when a coyote gets into range in the daylight. They want nothing more than to kill that coyote but the chances are few and far between. It's 99% mental.


Not living out west is not an excuse for your lack of practice. And I'm pretty sure not everyone in Illinois pissess down both legs the way you do when they see an animal.


Edited by nightcaller (08/18/19 12:20 PM)

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#3210350 - 08/18/19 12:20 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
reaper4 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 02/25/14
Posts: 1885
Loc: maryland eastern shore
Varminter, 👍🏻 Contests donít allow for ideal shots a lot of the time
_________________________
Jeremy

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#3210361 - 08/18/19 02:48 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: nightcaller]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Originally Posted By: nightcaller
Originally Posted By: varminter .223
I think another thing that guys out west don't take into account is they see and get an opportunity to shoot a lot of coyotes and can possibly remain more calm with the added experience from many more shot opportunities. I know most guys over here towards Illinois lose their ever-loving mind when a coyote gets into range in the daylight. They want nothing more than to kill that coyote but the chances are few and far between. It's 99% mental.


Not living out west is not an excuse for your lack of practice. And I'm pretty sure not everyone in Illinois pissess down both legs the way you do when they see an animal.

Can you explain to me how you practice simulating nerves when a coyote is charging in oh wizard of the west? Shot opportunities is really the only way. Almost anyone can hit a coyote sized target all day when shooting or practicing. While I don't kill everything I shoot at I never directly mentioned myself, I said most guys. You seem to have not been able to comprehend my post....desert heat getting to to you? Most guys get fewer than a handful of shots and some none each year here day calling. Don't believe I mentioned anything about pizzing but ya most guys get awful jack up.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/18/19 03:03 PM)

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#3210362 - 08/18/19 02:54 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Coyotes here don't even come out in the daylight much here. They certainly never stand still long enough for a bench rest style shot process. Before night hunting I would kill more each year with my bow just because I hunt every day. They don't come easy here. Most coyotes that get killed here in the day are probably run by dogs and shot while running too. I coyotes that are called in are inside for very short. Of time and then normally there and gone if you don't make the shot happen. I assume an Open Country there's more time to set up and get ready. Hopefully one day I'll make it there to find out myself.


Edited by varminter .223 (08/18/19 03:05 PM)

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#3210380 - 08/18/19 07:34 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
DoubleUp Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 12/18/10
Posts: 2445
Loc: USA
If you put a decent type bullet from a 223 where it is supposed to go the result is a dead coyote usually DRT. Certainly, marginal hits will mean runners, spinners, and some losers. I've always wondered on these discussions of the 223 why so many have bad experiences with it, but at least a portion of those people will tell you the 222 Rem. was and still is a great medium range coyote cartridge. Hard to believe it can be both ways.

I'm tending to believe that perhaps it is because the triple deuce is usually a bolt-action whereas a high percentage of 223's are AR's. Perhaps those fast follow up shots available with an AR may keep some from taking as careful first shot as they would with a bolt-action, and then with the AR it is easy to go into the spray and pray mode. Just a thought I have, and may not be valid, but I suspect it is in some cases.

I do like the AR for night calling and really enjoy the 6x45, but you still have to hit them in vital places.
_________________________
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He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Psalm 2:4




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#3210396 - 08/19/19 12:02 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: nightcaller]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
Originally Posted By: nightcaller
Psycho dog, you're the kind of person I'm talking to. You should stop hunting or go practice. Maybe then you'd have a few thousand less posts and a lot fewer missed or wounded animals. If you can't hit the can 20/20 you should be embarrassed!



LOL, I get plenty of range time. I'm the rifle range chairman at my gun club. Usually there 3-7 times a week. Sometimes working and sometimes shooting but trust me, I get plenty of range time. Those that know me know how I shoot. I'm just saying most...including me might have a tough time hitting 20/20 pop cans off shooting sticks at 100yds. Give me a decent rifle rest and there won't be a problem. As far as wounding animals, I take sensible shots at reasonable distances. If I think its to far away, I don't shoot. Been a long time since I wounded anything. Not counting your feelings. unsure

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#3210398 - 08/19/19 12:34 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: DoubleUp]
dozer_xj Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/09/17
Posts: 156
Loc: South Central IL
Originally Posted By: DoubleUp


I'm tending to believe that perhaps it is because the triple deuce is usually a bolt-action whereas a high percentage of 223's are AR's.


My brother had a Remington 700 vls 223 with a 26" barrel. Our friend had an ar15 with a 16" barrel. Shooting at a 5/16" mild steel gong , the the same FMJ ammo,my brothers gun would shoot through it and the ar would only dent it. I too kinda feel the 223 gets a bad wrap from short ar15 barrels. That being said the guys around here that kill over 100 a year use 243s. Gotta be something to that.

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#3210411 - 08/19/19 10:30 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: pyscodog]
DiRTY DOG Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 2585
Loc: West
Originally Posted By: pyscodog
Originally Posted By: nightcaller
Psycho dog, you're the kind of person I'm talking to... If you can't hit the can 20/20 you should be embarrassed!



LOL, I get plenty of range time. I'm the rifle range chairman at my gun club. Usually there 3-7 times a week. Sometimes working and sometimes shooting but trust me, I get plenty of range time. Those that know me know how I shoot. I'm just saying most...including me might have a tough time hitting 20/20 pop cans off shooting sticks at 100yds. Give me a decent rifle rest and there won't be a problem. As far as wounding animals, I take sensible shots at reasonable distances. If I think its to far away, I don't shoot. Been a long time since I wounded anything. Not counting your feelings. unsure

I think what he means is that practicing from a bench at a rifle range is not as effective as practicing actual field shooting positions. Let's face it, MOST hunters do not practice field positions such as seated with shooting stix and it shows when they transition from the bench to the field.

I personally have never attempted 20 continuous shots at a soda can, but I have spent countless hours plinking at stuff with 22s from every position. And I regularly plink rocks and targets etc with my hunting rifle off stix pretty much every time I go out and on dedicated outings.

The only time I ever use a bench or range is for comfort/convenience during load development and testing.
_________________________
Aim small miss small.

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#3210416 - 08/19/19 12:16 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
Having grown up in WI and hunting fox for bounty in the 1960's experience is the biggest thing in gaining confidence. Practicing from field positions is another. Adapting to your hunting conditions is another, trying to call coyotes into the open in a heavily populated/hunted area can be a frustrating experience and when you do get one to come out more than often you will rush the shot for fear it will bolt. You might try getting down in the thick stuff where a coyote is far more comfortable.

The 222 Rem is a rather unique cartridge, and the fellow that is shooting one is someone that usually has a lot of experience. The average person will see a 222 Rem and wonder what it would cost to have it re-chambered to 223. A 222 Rem shooter will understand the limitations of the round and keep his shots within it's capabilities.

I have 3 222 Rem and zero 223's, if I need more than the 222 Rem the 22-250 more than fits the bill but saying that my coyote kills are far more likely to be with a 222 than a 22-250. I rarely expect a called coyote to farther than the effective range of the 222 Rem. and have no problems passing one one that is a marginal shot, I can usually call him in another day.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3210423 - 08/19/19 01:46 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
I never said 20/20 can't be done. But more people probably can't than can as shooting off sticks is a totally different game than shooting off a rest. I have several sets of sticks but truthfully, I hardly ever use them. Most of my field shooting is done setting on my butt and shooting off my knees. I usually set on a very short turkey seat and just rest my rifle off my knees. Been doing it for years. But here again, I wait for the shot. If its headed towards me I just wait. If its out of my comfort zone I just pass. I hunt for fun so its not a big deal if I don't get a shot.

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#3210443 - 08/19/19 06:34 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
Being able to hit a popcan at a hundred won't get you past round 1 at the egg shoot. I practice on dime sized targets at 100 yards with my 22 LR leading up to the egg shoot. You better be able to hit a quarter at 150 yards off sticks to be competitive. Last year I didn't get past round two.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3210486 - 08/20/19 11:45 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
Pop cans on a stick don't move either, coyotes hardly ever stand still. Apples and oranges. We use to shoot ping pong balls filled with colored water hanging from a string at 100yds with 17HMR's. Thats a bunch of fun when there's a breeze blowing. (Note: my friends wife filled them with a syringe and super glued a string to them and we hung them off the bottom of a back stop.)

AWS, I agree shooting cans @100 and eggs @150 are totally different. I have a buddy that thinks it will be easy. Soon as the weather cools a little, I'm going to have an egg shoot at the club. Figure he can come out and show all of us how easy it is. LOL!!

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#3210492 - 08/20/19 01:10 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
Oklahoma isn't that far from Elko, come on out and shoot eggs and coyotes with everyone.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3210501 - 08/20/19 03:23 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
I'd love to come out and meet a bunch of you guys. According to Google its about 22 hours from Tulsa. Just had a big expense getting dental work done. I'm not sure the funds will be there this year but its on the bucket list.

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#3211977 - 09/08/19 10:46 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Dultimatpredator]
MIvarminter50 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Dultimatpredator
Every coyote Iíve shot with a 223 has been bang flops except for one due to poor shot placement. I hit it high across the back. Never did recover it. I saw it the next day in the same area limping with a moon shape chunk missing out it.

My load 60 grain vmax with 25 grains of benchmark. Runs 2850 FPS out of my 14.5Ē POF and about another 125 FPS faster out of my 20Ē LTR.

Extremely poor shot placement is your problem as everyone who read the post can clearly see and have told you. Any plastic tipped bullet is your friend with this caliber. Aim for the shoulder on standing coyotes and they wonít go anywhere. If you canít stop them to stop for standing still shot then donít shoot. Youíll harvest less dogs but at least your DRT count will rise. Iíd tell you practice, practice, practice...or leave the rifle at home and pick up a shotgun along with some lead BB shot.


Good stuff right there !
.223 I use 60 gr vmax
6.5 grendel I use 95 gr vmax wink
I too need to practice MORE using my tri-pod/shooting sticks ..


Edited by MIvarminter50 (09/08/19 10:54 AM)

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#3212043 - 09/09/19 08:35 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
varminter .223 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 2111
Loc: south central Illinois
Just about anything will work if you hit them right. I think basically the two to three not being enough for coyote means that when you shoot them through the guts or a little far back or through the back leg they don't blow up like they do with a 243 around max load. I think blem bullets also have thicker jackets and maybe don't work like the regular ones.


Edited by varminter .223 (09/09/19 08:36 AM)

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#3212356 - 09/13/19 10:49 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Scrumbag Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/04/19
Posts: 106
Loc: UK
Before changing guns I would try different ammo.

Certainly if I shoot a fox with my 62gr Federal Fusions it's much better if I hit a solid bone like the shoulder. They seem to "pencil" through if I don't get a major bone. Something like a 55gr V-max is available in lots of factory loadings and probably worth a box or 2.

Practice is always important. Gut shots and hips will usually result in runners. The more practice you have and confidence in your equipment the easier it will be to make good hits and take some of the pressure off on live quarry.

ATB,

Scrummy


Edited by Scrumbag (09/13/19 10:50 AM)

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#3213433 - 09/27/19 10:06 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
firecapt Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 328
Loc: huntsville,Al.
I think the 6.8 is a great choice when you need extra power. The round will take on larger game when the opportunity comes around. My grandsons have taken several deer with it.

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#3213437 - 09/27/19 10:31 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
6724 Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 2851
Loc: colorado
If you are having trouble killing coyotes with a 223, you need to look in the mirror to find out why!!

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#3213452 - 09/28/19 09:25 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
lowholer1 Offline
Die Hard Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 905
Loc: washington
I have a hard time with believing a 223 is not enough gun for coyotes.As a kid all I had was my ruger 10/22 and I killed a lot of coyotes.I was so pumped the day I got it and still own it.I think shot placement is crucial If you put one in the lungs ,head or kneck they may run off but it will die some were!
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Lowholer

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#3213454 - 09/28/19 10:37 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: lowholer1]
spotstalkshoot Online
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 12/22/13
Posts: 1473
Loc: so.mn
I see it at range days all the time, not everyone has the same ability or the same quality level of equipment. That's why there often disagreement and discussion about caliber choice and observational performance.

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#3213457 - 09/28/19 10:58 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
Coyotejunki Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 4786
Loc: MO
I guess I will need to sell off my 17's and 20's and stay with my 22-250 because they clearly won't work.

Also, all you egg shoot guys just need to forfeit and just let me win that AR15 because it is a 223... laugh
_________________________
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis



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#3213487 - 09/28/19 04:10 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: spotstalkshoot]
pyscodog Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 13186
Loc: okla
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshoot
I see it at range days all the time, not everyone has the same ability or the same quality level of equipment. That's why there often disagreement and discussion about caliber choice and observational performance.


I'm the range chairman at our club and see what spotstalkshoot is talking about on a daily basis. Also whats good enough for them isn't going to work at all for me or you. I know a guy that if he can hit a paper plate at 100yds, thats plenty good enough.

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#3213788 - 10/01/19 04:04 PM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: pyscodog]
SnowmanMo Offline
Director/Moderator

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 3268
Loc: Phoenix, Az
Originally Posted By: pyscodog
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshoot
I see it at range days all the time, not everyone has the same ability or the same quality level of equipment. That's why there often disagreement and discussion about caliber choice and observational performance.


I'm the range chairman at our club and see what spotstalkshoot is talking about on a daily basis. Also whats good enough for them isn't going to work at all for me or you. I know a guy that if he can hit a paper plate at 100yds, thats plenty good enough.


I think these are valid points. I shoot a lot and I shoot a lot of coyotes. I have used everything fron a .17Rem to a .308 to a 12 gauge. I've had runners on just about everone of those at some point. I don't jump right to the caliber. I look at the shot placement first then look at the results of the shot, if I can. Once had a coyote take a dead on chest hit from my .308 and it spun and tried to run. A quick follow up anchored it. The first shot had completely unzipped it's left side. So something caused the shot to veer off after it entered. Was that one enough for me to give up on the caliber? No way. I would just as quickly grab my 17, 204, 223, 6.5g or 308 and go out without hesitation.
_________________________


Mama always said, coyotes are like a box of chocolates...



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#3214224 - 10/06/19 10:23 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: Pantera]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4718
Loc: NM
I just came back from a week of coyote hunting with my nephew. We were playing with rifles and killed them with a 22 Mag, 218 Bee, 22-250, .243 and 16ga the only one that got back up and got away was with the 243, go figure.

We did take a 223 out one day but didn't see one to shot, I guess the 223 didn't cut it as a coyote rifle.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3214229 - 10/06/19 11:01 AM Re: .223 not cutting it for coyotes [Re: AWS]
Coyotejunki Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 04/03/04
Posts: 4786
Loc: MO
Old Chili Rojo killed a bunch of coyotes with the old Hornet one year for the foxpro contest. Shot placement, and call them in.
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