Bullet performance

I've been debating on trying a 40 gr nosler BT loaded at 3600 fps out if my 223. I have been using a 60 gr vmax at 2950 fps with great success and no pelt damage but would like to shoot a little flatter out to 300 yards. Will the lighter, faster load out of my 1/9 twist drop them on the spot and not wreck hides?
 
Fast and heavy works wonders. a 50gr .224 at 3500 is a world apart from a 70gr at the same speed. I have found that I prefer heavy for caliber, heavily constructed match bullets over all others.
 
Originally Posted By: liliysdadFast and heavy works wonders. a 50gr .224 at 3500 is a world apart from a 70gr at the same speed. I have found that I prefer heavy for caliber, heavily constructed match bullets over all others.

I agree with few exceptions, heavy for caliber especially if the target has any size, Prarie dogs? Light will do
 
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoOriginally Posted By: YotarunnerThis is interesting. It seems folks are finding that fairly fast is the answer and I have been finding the oposite.
This last year I shot a pile of dogs with my 222 40vmax at barely 3000fps. The slower vmax seems to stay inside and no splashes whatsoever. The last few years between the swift,22-250 and 20practical all running vmax bullets I have found that eventually I will get a splash or blowout.
My unofficial redneck theory is that the lower hydrostatic shock keeps the mess contained even at up close velocities.

I think you really have to keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I see a difference in not only velocity but also bullet construction and design. When the vmax started letting us down in the .204 we switched to the 45gr Hornady SP and we have gone right back to DRT's. We saw a similar result with the 17Rem. Using the poly-tipped Remington factory ammunition, we got a lot of surface splash and runners. When we switched to the 25gr hollowpoint, DRT's again. In looking at the damage done with recovered predators we found that we needed to get into the muscle BEFORE the bullet started to expand but that once it expanded it needed to do so very quickly. There just seemed to be a sweet spot for velocity and it wasn't the same for HP's as it was for polymer tipped or SP's.

I don't think that there really is one answer to the riddle. Is velocity a factor? Of course. Is it the only factor. No. Is bullet weight and design a factor? Yes. Is it the only factor? No.

A good round is made like any good recipe. A little of this and a little of that. Having a place like PM is important to share information. But the proof is ultimately in the pudding, or the fur.

Agree
 
Originally Posted By: liliysdadFast and heavy works wonders. a 50gr .224 at 3500 is a world apart from a 70gr at the same speed. I have found that I prefer heavy for caliber, heavily constructed match bullets over all others. If I remember correctly very one except Berger states that their match bullets have thinner jackets than their hunting bullets. Generally speaking match bullets have very thin jackets. I don't want neophytes to believe that most match bullets have thick copper jackets. The opposite is true, for the most part. Lately there have been a number of posts referring to thick jacketed match bullets.
 
Originally Posted By: Harvey7Originally Posted By: liliysdadFast and heavy works wonders. a 50gr .224 at 3500 is a world apart from a 70gr at the same speed. I have found that I prefer heavy for caliber, heavily constructed match bullets over all others. If I remember correctly very one except Berger states that their match bullets have thinner jackets than their hunting bullets. Generally speaking match bullets have very thin jackets. I don't want neophytes to believe that most match bullets have thick copper jackets. The opposite is true, for the most part. Lately there have been a number of posts referring to thick jacketed match bullets.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/line-and-designs/
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?5914...xpected-Results


 
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Experience using match and game bullets tells me that, regardless of jacket thickness, match bullets stay together far better than any sort of Varmint bullet, and most cup and core hunting bullets.
 
That 45gr Hornady from the 204 doesn't do great in the wind, but it has sure stomped a lot of coyotes for me. I have taken some pretty bad angles and broke some bones along the way too. My bolt gun loves that load and the 40gr V max at 3900fps in the Superformance load. I tend to shoot the V max on varmints during warm months but switch to the SP for fall and winter coyotes.

I really want someone to make a tough polymer tip predator bullet with a decent BC for the 204. I've emailed Nosler, Sierra, and others hoping it someday happens. Closest I've seen so far is the 40gr Ballistic tip but it's not that tough, just tougher than the V max or Blitzking.
 
Originally Posted By: mcseal2That 45gr Hornady from the 204 doesn't do great in the wind, but it has sure stomped a lot of coyotes for me. I have taken some pretty bad angles and broke some bones along the way too. My bolt gun loves that load and the 40gr V max at 3900fps in the Superformance load. I tend to shoot the V max on varmints during warm months but switch to the SP for fall and winter coyotes.

I really want someone to make a tough polymer tip predator bullet with a decent BC for the 204. I've emailed Nosler, Sierra, and others hoping it someday happens. Closest I've seen so far is the 40gr Ballistic tip but it's not that tough, just tougher than the V max or Blitzking.

Why does it need to be a poly tip?

The 55 berger is crazy good in 20cal.
 
I have shot coyotes with a lot of things over the years, from little light .22 centerfires on up through serious big game rifles. For me, nothing knocks them flat as fast as my 243 with an 87 VMAX. That bullet opens fast, but has enough weight to go deep too. Any angle, as long as you get a big enough piece of him (and sometimes it doesn't take a very big piece), he is down for keeps.

I'm not saying there aren't other things just as effective, no doubt there are plenty of them. Just that combination is the best I have personally ever used. And that includes some fast twist hot-rod 22 centerfires.

I have had good luck with the 50 grain Dogtown spitzer in a 12 twist 223, at about 3250 fps. It opens nice and fast but doesn't splash for me.

I tend to agree that the best performance comes when you can get the bullet an inch or two in the coyote before violent expansion initiates. That can be different speeds for different bullets, through different twists. Some bullets and/or combinations just flat work, and it takes experimentation to figure that out.

I'm not really a high speed guy. More and more I go to shorter barreled rifles because I shoot everything suppressed, and don't want a bulky weapons system.

My 5.56 AR with 14.5" (1:7 twist) barrel I am still working trying to find just the right bullet. The problem is that I am trying to ask it to do too many things. I realize that. It pulls double duty as both a tight cover calling rifle, and a sometimes pig gun. Or calling coyotes in places pigs might respond. One of those needs a fast opening bullet, the other deep penetration. Currently I am shooting the 65 SGK, and it does pretty good at walking the line between the two. It is a really good pig bullet for a 556, but a little slow opening at lower speeds on coyotes. It still works fine on them but I have to take a little extra effort and make sure I get my shots tight into the kill zone.
 
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Originally Posted By: JTPinTXI'm not saying there aren't other things just as effective, no doubt there are plenty of them. Just that combination is the best I have personally ever used used. And that includes some fast twist hot-rod 22 centerfires. Have you compared wind drift at 600 between that 87gr 24cal vmax and an 22cal 80gr berger @ 3500?
 
Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: JTPinTXI'm not saying there aren't other things just as effective, no doubt there are plenty of them. Just that combination is the best I have personally ever used used. And that includes some fast twist hot-rod 22 centerfires. Have you compared wind drift at 600 between that 87gr 24cal vmax and an 22cal 80gr berger @ 3500?

No I haven't. I rarely shoot coyotes that far. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting distance on steel. And the reason for my choosing the 87 VMAX over some of the other 24 cal offerings was the combination of a decently good BC in a relatively light varmint bullet. But the goal on most of my setups is to get them within 150 yards. Sure, I shoot a fair number from 250-400 that hang up. But I consider those failures on my part to pull them into the kill box I had planned. For those longer ones I appreciate what the 87 VMAX/243 combination brings to the table as far as killing power and cutting the wind.

Something that I have found is that by setting up to be able to take long shots, I have more hangups. Because if I can see that far, they can too. It makes them much more prone to sit back and try to figure the scenario out from a distance. Whereas if they have to come into the 250 yard kill box to get a peek, then that is what they do.

Just different preferences I guess, on how a guy likes to shoot his coyotes. No right or wrong.
 
No right or wrong on setup, I agree. How a guy wants to hunt is up to them, and within bounds of propriety, no right or wrong in it.

However, when talking cartridge combinations and their capabilities in the world, there's right and wrong which is very cut and dried in terms of actual performance. Energy on target and wind drift being very important to terminal capabilities. Those that make statements of cartridge performance based on preference rather than provable fact is what causes the issues. There is a hierarchy. Some things simply perform better than others.

If folks would say something like "this is my preference, and I like it... but I realize this other thing is likely better," there would likely be less conjecture and struggle around the topic.
 
For calling coyote as I practice it, fast and flat with relatively light bullets is where it's at. Bullet construction and terminal performance need to be considered and evaluated carefully though. Effective field performance is not as simple as just launching a Vmax at 4,500 fps.

But for me, whatever happens at more than 400 yards is meaningless. The compromises necessary to achieve superior performance at distances beyond 400 yards are penalties I have no reason to pay and am quite happy to be avoiding.

- DAA
 
There are so many variables in coyote hunting, calling, spot and stalk, bait setups, watching travel routes and then regional influences like weather,terrain,cover types,shooting distance, fur condition and value, that one bullet/cartridge is very unlikely. I have found some recommended bullets will not work for me. I need 1-3 inches of penetration for Red fox and 2-5 inches for coyote. This winter, if my first NFA stamp is issued, I will have a suppressor(s) to add to the list of variables. Some shorter barrels? Lower velocities? Scope zeroing changes? My plan, head shoot the sleepers and chest shoot standing coyote. These are the only variables I can control since it is my finger on the trigger.
 
Originally Posted By: DAAFor calling coyote as I practice it, fast and flat with relatively light bullets is where it's at. Bullet construction and terminal performance need to be considered and evaluated carefully though. Effective field performance is not as simple as just launching a Vmax at 4,500 fps.

But for me, whatever happens at more than 400 yards is meaningless. The compromises necessary to achieve superior performance at distances beyond 400 yards are penalties I have no reason to pay and am quite happy to be avoiding.

- DAA You should consider yourself blessed to have such opportunities to be happy with what you describe. No doubt if I didn't need capabilities at longer ranges, I'd never be asking for those capabilities. The local terrain and behaviors in specific areas have a tremendous amount to do with all of this. As does what someone's desires dictate.

Where I hunt is huge country. Short grass prairie. I've been on a set and have seen 18 coyotes without once moving my butt. When you're in that kind of country, where you can glass coyotes out to a couple miles... they just don't all come flying in to present close shots. I kill far more coyotes every year between 300-600yds than I do inside 300yds. Short grass plains coyotes put a lot more distance on than I've experienced in real brushy areas. Those coyotes in brushy country, I'm right there with DAA in that I'd want something REALLY flat shooting and in a fast handling rifle. When the dogs are timid, that same setup is a recipe for being skunked around here. The other thing that comes with those big plains areas is wind. LOTS of wind. The wind drift on light and fast is horrific in comparison to heavy and fast.

A 22-243win with 52smk going 4100fps in a 10mph 3:00 wind requires 0.8 mils of hold at 300yds. An 80gr berger at 3500fps only requires 0.4 mils.

Bump the wind up to 15mph and that goes to 1.1mils and 0.6 mils, respectively. That's not marginal, nor is that trivial.

Fact is, this all has to do with the style of hunting you're engaged in, the location you're hunting, and your definition of success... based on your wants and needs. If you simply don't see, or don't want to engage distant coyotes, then clearly you'll never want for anything with a light weight for cal bullet going fast. Though if you do want to engage further coyotes, or simply have an easier time hitting those closer ones regardless of what the wind is doing... then heavy for cal is superior in every way. Drag models, BC's, and proliferation of firing solution calculators makes this information a fact that's very easy to confirm. If you only need to guess the wind to +/- 8mph to still achieve a solid hit, your chances of a hit will be significantly higher than something requiring wind estimation to +/- 1mph. You can achieve those numbers by reducing the range to target, or shooting something that's better in the wind.

It's all pretty simple.
 
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