Bullet performance

parson

Member
There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding bullet performance with several calibers but especially the .204. Light bullets, heavy bullets, slow and fast bullets. Experiences vary considerably. I don’t consider myself an expert worthy of telling anyone else what to or not do. I started hunting coyotes more than 50 years ago while living and working in the Mamouth Lakes area of California. I used an old Winchester 43 in .218 Bee, given to me by an old Nevada sheep herder. I used nothing but factory Winchester 46 gr hollow points. Most of my shooting was driving between Crowley Lake and Mamouth Mt. Inn, road shooting coming and going from work. Shot a lot of them. Distance not great, may 150 at most with most closer to 100. Young, in good shape, just out of the Marines, never shot less than expert, so at these ranges I never missed a single one, never needed a follow up shot, always died within a few steps. Fast forward, the newer hot rods have extended the distance greatly but that high velocity changes the rule considerably. Once read a very in depth article by Barns describing the development of the Barns X, he said they had no trouble until they started going over 3200 fps then the physics totally changed and nothing worked the same. He described it like this. If you stood at the edge of a swimming pool and just tipped yourself in at the deep end, you would probably go all the way to the bottom with no harm done. Now go up in a plane to 30,000 feet and dive into the same pool. He said you would not go more than about 2 feet into the water and break every bone in you body. Same projectile, same medium, only difference is velocity. Same with bullets, increase velocity and physics changes. What works slow does not always work the same fast and vise versa. Bullet manufactures have done an incredible job in trying to get the two together but so far nobody has that perfect bullet that works under call conditions. What am I getting at? Let’s kerp exchanging experiences, but understand, what works for me may not work for you, I will respect your experience but maybe totally disagree based on my experience, you do your thing and I will do mine
 
I couldn't agree more. There are a lot of hunters out there that don't understand some of the basics. This is why I like this site, lots of knowledge.
 
Agreed.
I always respect the experience of others, even when they are younger than me. Everyone has had different experiences and no two people are the same. I feel I can learn from anyone's experience and weed out the BS myself.
When someone says this bullet kills and this one doesn't, I take all that with a grain of salt. Different barrel lengths, different yardages, different conditions, possible embellishment of one's abilities or bullet placement, that all comes into play.

A poorly placed .50BMG will not kill a coyote, but a well placed rock will kill him dead.
 
I have noticed that velocity is always part of the thought process on the bullet performance equation, but I often wonder about barrel twist and bullet rpm's. In my observation, and observation only, it seems that rpm's make a difference. For example, using the same handloads in two different 223's shooting prairie dogs the rifle with the faster twist seems to be more 'destructive' on impact, which suggests that bullet comes apart more violently than the one shot from the rifle with the slower twist. In my mind, that may make a difference on bullet performance on larger critters as far as penetration, pass throughs or splashes. Anyway, just some thoughts/observations on the subject.
 
Originally Posted By: obaroI have noticed that velocity is always part of the thought process on the bullet performance equation, but I often wonder about barrel twist and bullet rpm's. In my observation, and observation only, it seems that rpm's make a difference. For example, using the same handloads in two different 223's shooting prairie dogs the rifle with the faster twist seems to be more 'destructive' on impact, which suggests that bullet comes apart more violently than the one shot from the rifle with the slower twist. In my mind, that may make a difference on bullet performance on larger critters as far as penetration, pass throughs or splashes. Anyway, just some thoughts/observations on the subject.

This is a grat topic and I appreciate everyone's points of view. As previously stated everyone has different experiences. My experiences with modern bullets goes back to my early days calling. I shot and killed 67 coyotes in one season using my 16in .223 using factory loaded Hornady ammunition using 55gr Vmax's. It was my go to ammunition and caliber. But then something changed. I started getting more runners. My first thought was that it was me and my shot placement. More and more range time and more and more runnners made me realize there was something else going on. Then we started seeing the same thing in the .204 with the Vmax's. We also noted a loss of accuracy with the Vmax's. While looking into this we noted a big variance in the weights of the Vmax bullet.

When we switched over and started working more and more with the 6.5 Grendel we found great results with the Amax for accuracy and the SST for coyotes. But now that Hornady has gone away from that to the ELD and ELDX, we started seeing the same problems with bullet expansion.

In the .308 I found that the good old, tried and true, 150gr SP to not only be one of the more accurate but also a coyote CRUSHER!

I think that velocity is only one part of the equation. How the bullet absorbs energy as it is moving is another part. So is bullet bearing surface, twist rate to barrel length, etc. It really has to be a perfect storm to get a truly great bullet. I think that the recent shift in Hornady's focus to faster, faster, faster is wrong. But that's just MHO.
 
I been using the 55gr Vmax in both my .223 AR and my Ruger No.1 .220 Swift for a long time. One at 2860 the other at 3950. I only take broadside or frontal shots to avoid bone. I get instant kills and rarely get an exit. Hit bone and you better forget the hide which is what I'm after. Taking selected shots vs firing for effect will make a difference. I tried different soft points but found the extra penetration produced larger exit holes. In my 6mm Remington the plain ole Hornady 70 grain spire point worked the best. I say experiment and use what works for you. If you just want to shoot coyotes for the sake of just killing them then nothing matters.
 
I have killed around 800 coyotes with 25gr.berger match grade bullets out to 416 yds.one shot.and about the same amount with a 22-250 shooting 52gr.HPBT MATCH HORNADY AND the same 52gr.Sierra bullets before the 17 was over the counter gun.the 17 rarely leaves an exit wound and the insides are mush they rarely run 20yds.with the 22 I have had them run 100 plus yds sometimes with their lungs hanging out the other side. It don't make sense to a lot of people is the 17 actually kills them better and quicker. I think the smaller bullet has a lot more hydrostatic shock internally. Just my experience though.
 
Speed kills, its that simple. Its not really the speed of the bullet I guess, its the sudden stop that does the kill'n.
 
The way I shot I get more DRT with my 17 wsm than my 223.I get a lot of splashes. I grew up using a 22 mag and that the best shot placement with it was the point of the shoulder witch is bad for the 223 but great for the 17. It loves to hit bone.i kill most with a shot gun most of my rifle shot are less the a hundred yard.i had some hand load that was backed down to around 2800 fps that did well with the 53 grain VMAX but since I have the 17 there is no need to get more loaded
 
I think there is a velocity level that creates more hydrostatic shock and quicker kills with the fragile bullets. I have shot 35-50 coyotes a year for the last 20 years. Not nearly what a lot of you have done, but still a considerable sample size. A lot of these coyotes have been shot with V max bullets in either 50 or 55gr .22 caliber or 75gr .243 caliber. The ones shot with the AR or 20" bolt 223 seem to run further or spin more on average with similar shot placement. Coyotes shot on equal hits with the 22-250 or 220 swift with the same bullet pushed faster usually drop. My 223's are shooting a 55gr V max at 2950fps, the 22-250 has most recently shot the Superformance factory 50gr V max at 3900fps. My 204 shooting the 40gr V max at 3800fps or the 45gr SP at 3400fps also drops them fast as long as I don't splash the V max on a shoulder. The 243 or 6mm with the bigger bullet at 3300fps plus kill very fast also.

Lots of factors play into this, it's not a hard and fast rule. A relaxed coyote with no idea I'm around on average dies quicker than one that's running from me with it's adrenaline flowing. Some of this is due to improved shot placement on the clueless coyote, but even with good hits on one that's spooked they can go a little ways.

Distance changes velocity and I see the results amplified with the 223 at longer distances. Most of my called coyotes are shot within 120yds, and the 223 drops coyotes pretty darn fast there. At longer distances as the bullet slows and energy decreases the average time a coyote remains on it's feet increases. With the faster bullets from the bigger cases I don't see this as much because they have more velocity to spare. At 200yds the 50gr bullet from the 22-250 is still as fast as the 223 at the muzzle.

I'm not bashing any of these. I still do most of my calling with the 223 because it works well within my normal calling distances. If a coyote spins or runs a bit I still recover him after a good hit. If I ever get a cat to come in I shouldn't wreck him as bad as a hotter load either. Many of the coyotes shot with any of the rifles just drop on the spot with a good hit. I just notice as I shoot more that there seems to be a velocity threshold that results in really fast kills when it's exceeded. I really don't see that once you pass that point kill speed increases either, a coyote can only die so fast. The 243 with a 75gr V max doesn't have a big advantage over the 22-250 with a 50gr V max on broadside shots for example. The extra bullet isn't a factor unless I need to penetrate more coyote with an angled shot.

Anyway, that's my observation. Nothing real surprising. With good shot placement it all works even if it takes a few more seconds for the coyote to drop. It's not a big deal unless I'm wanting to switch to a different coyote but hesitant to pull off the first one before it's on the ground when I call multiples in. In contest situations I like them to hit the ground instantly so I can be drawing down on the next one.
 

Agreed. This is a great topic and some very good information. I appreciate reading detailed experiences like this.
 
I will take a 55g Sierra spt, btsp, bthp over a 55 v max anyday. Why you ask. Well, I can break shoulders, hip joints, spines, thick ribs and the bullet keeps on trucking.

55g out of a 22/250 AI at 4050 or out of a Swift at 3900 is magic. Quartering shots are a part of hunting, you need a bullet to travel through 12-14" of meat and bone.

We killed a lot of coyotes with 17 Mach 4 with 25g Bergers and many Rem 700 factory with 25g Remington bullets, issue is if you hit them behind the diaphragm, they are GONE!

We love the 243(3400 fps) and 6 Rem(3500 fps) loaded to the hilt with IMR 4064 and the 80g Sierra single shot pistol bullet(now discontinued) or the 80g Sierra Blitz bt. These loads will shoot the whole azz end off a coyote, he ain't running off when shot in the stomach, either!

It is not sound thinking to ham string your self by choosing a bullet that will not penetrate shoulders and hip joints. Thinking of just shooting at standing broadsides! Jeez, I can't even imagine that! You have to learn to leade them killing them running away, running to you, running broadside, or else you are going to educate a lot of coyotes. You are going to miss some coyotes, that is part of hunting.

Speed on a bullet is a coyote hunters best friend.

223 AI-50g Sierra spt at 3800
22/250 AI-55g Sierra at 4050
220 Swift-55g Sierra -3900
243-60g Sierra at 3800
243-80g Sierra BTSP blitz at 3400
243 AI-70g nosler at 3800
6 Rem- 60g Sierra at 4000
6 Rem-80g Sierra btsp Blitz at 3500
6 Rem AI-70g Nosler at 4100

These are what I used, and they are a recipe for total success! The vast majority of shots are 350 and under in the SW where I hunted, with 90% being 250 yds and under. Coyotes were coming in to a call either hand held or E caller.
 
This is interesting. It seems folks are finding that fairly fast is the answer and I have been finding the oposite.
This last year I shot a pile of dogs with my 222 40vmax at barely 3000fps. The slower vmax seems to stay inside and no splashes whatsoever. The last few years between the swift,22-250 and 20practical all running vmax bullets I have found that eventually I will get a splash or blowout.
My unofficial redneck theory is that the lower hydrostatic shock keeps the mess contained even at up close velocities.
 
Originally Posted By: YotarunnerThis is interesting. It seems folks are finding that fairly fast is the answer and I have been finding the oposite.
This last year I shot a pile of dogs with my 222 40vmax at barely 3000fps. The slower vmax seems to stay inside and no splashes whatsoever. The last few years between the swift,22-250 and 20practical all running vmax bullets I have found that eventually I will get a splash or blowout.
My unofficial redneck theory is that the lower hydrostatic shock keeps the mess contained even at up close velocities.

I think you really have to keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I see a difference in not only velocity but also bullet construction and design. When the vmax started letting us down in the .204 we switched to the 45gr Hornady SP and we have gone right back to DRT's. We saw a similar result with the 17Rem. Using the poly-tipped Remington factory ammunition, we got a lot of surface splash and runners. When we switched to the 25gr hollowpoint, DRT's again. In looking at the damage done with recovered predators we found that we needed to get into the muscle BEFORE the bullet started to expand but that once it expanded it needed to do so very quickly. There just seemed to be a sweet spot for velocity and it wasn't the same for HP's as it was for polymer tipped or SP's.

I don't think that there really is one answer to the riddle. Is velocity a factor? Of course. Is it the only factor. No. Is bullet weight and design a factor? Yes. Is it the only factor? No.

A good round is made like any good recipe. A little of this and a little of that. Having a place like PM is important to share information. But the proof is ultimately in the pudding, or the fur.
 
17 Tac 30 Kindler Golds at 3960 DRT.

223 Rem 52 Amax never an issue - DRT. A few years ago switched to 53 Vmax and have not had an issue yet but the sample number may be too small due to this being my back up gun. Definitely something to watch for.
 
I won't bore everyone by listing all the cartridge and bullet combinations I've used over the years. More than most, I'd say.

These days I run a 22 creedmoor with 80gr bergers going 3525fps. The prairie I hunt is big. Some shots are long. Some shots are close. I've found nothing that anchors them as decidedly which also fits perfectly in a short action mag, with the bullet seated where I want them in the case. NOT fur friendly, but when it comes to making shots in the wind, or at distance, this is a combination that has captivated my attention. In the past, I was always left wanting. I've tried 52SMK's at 4100fps. The light weight stuff just doesn't make it happen past 400yds. Even perfectly placed shots can result in runners. I've not had a runner in three years of shooting 80 bergers and the 22 creed. Never in my life have I gone that long on that many coyotes without having a runner, or at least a track job. Heavy 22 cal bullets going fast has made a believer out of me. My youtube channel is full of proof of that fact.

A 204 ruger or 20-223AI with berger 55's is not a bad choice either, if a guy is working off a small bolt face.
 
I can corroborate what yotarunner is saying, i have been on a couple hunts with him, me on the 204 him on the 222, and strange as it seems the slow moving 22 cal was better on fur than the hot 20 cal.

My redneck opinion is that velocity comes at a price, hit the shoulder bone and things get uggly, hit off centre of the chest and it will take the path of least resistance and blow a hole out the side of his neck.

As for the bullet construction, again i think it come back to velocity, more = more, higher velocity = more energy in the same weight bullet, it has to go somewhere, either all in the coyote or in the dirt.

Dont get me wrong keep doing what works for you. I think the best way to analyse the data is to get out there and make a stand
 
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