Barnes 70 grain TSX in .223 / 5.56, anyone shooting them?

I never get good groups out of them, best I ever managed was 2.5" at 100. I moved to the 65 gr. Sierra gk and get .5" groups or better.
 
I am in the process of trying to get a load worked up for them.

I have a 16 inch Colt 6920 with the factory 1:7 barrel.

I worked up 50 rounds of TAC and 50 rounds of AA2520 all the way up to 5.56 max as per the Western Powders load guide.

A couple of basic mistakes cost me all the testing..... Basically i have to start from scratch again.

This has been awhile ago now. I chucked up my RCBS expander ball in my drill and polished it to shiny. I should have noticed right away that it was abnormally smooth to FL size......

Down the road i was suspicious of accuracy problems and sizing ease. Then i measured it....

Unlike Forster or Redding dies the expander portion of RCBS dies are not hardened metal. I ended up removing over .008.

So.... I get to test the whole thing again. Another mistake i made: I found a great accuracy area at 24.4 grains of TAC.

2711 fps at 38° shooting around .85 MOA

The mistake was adding the Surefire muzzle break for my suppressor that still has not arrived. I went out to the range with 10 loads of 24.3/10 more of 24.4 & 10 more of 24.5. I thought i was onto it......

All bad!! Crappy 1.6 - 2.2

Then i realized what i had done. Never change barrel harmonics in the middle of load development. Especially not when paying 50 cents a bullet.

In the end... Both of those powders got me to around 2850fps out of a carbine. The brass looked fine. I think that is too much speed though? Average was round 2 MOA all in all. I was not able to reload the cases again to check the size of the pockets.

I have another expander ball and am getting ready to buy a couple more boxes and go through the load development again.

I want this bullet to work. I think it will have excellent performance on Cougars.

It is just darned expensive.
 

The Barnes TSX have been very good accuracy wise as well as performance in large calibers. I love then in a .308, 7mmSTW, .300 Win Mag and .338 Win Mag. My son uses them in a .300 Ultra Mag also. Recently I tried them in my 6x45 and groups were terrible, the first time I have a rifle that doesn't like them. Maybe small calibers don't tend to shoot them well though some on here use them in small calibers. It may just be an individual firearm thing.
 
Why 70gr TTSX in a 223? Seems very heavy for caliber, especially considering the 99% weight retention. The normal thing to do with TTSX is go DOWN in weight not up. The extra velocity from a lighter bullet increases performance and expansion and you still get 99% weight retention and usually complete pass throughs.

What is the benefit of a heavy for caliber TTSX? You'll likely need a 1:7 twist to stabilize it too because 70gr TTSX is longer than a lead bullet.
 
Barkman, I have a box of the 65 gr. Sierra GK, I'm planning to try them out as well. I couldn't find hardly anything heavier than that, in a hunting bullet, without going lead free...so I figured I'd give the lead free a try.

6mm06, I don't know a whole lot about 6x45, but they shoot fairly heavy bullets right? What is the twist of your barrel and what bullet weights were you trying to shoot?

ARlaunch, Yeah, they ain't cheap! Barnes has some load data on their website, even in the elusive 5.56, based off of barrel length. They had loads for H335 and Varget too.

DD - Maybe it's just advertising hype, but I like the idea of the bigger mushroom, faster expansion and weight retention. I was always worried about low velocity with a heavy .223 bullet, but I believe the Barnes TSX / TTSX are supposed to expand with lower velocity due to their structure. I thought I stumbled across that recommended velocity data some time ago, but I looked on Barnes website and could not find it. It's supposed to work good in a 1:8 twist, which is what I have in a 20" WOA barrel.
 

Originally Posted By: reloader3266mm06, I don't know a whole lot about 6x45, but they shoot fairly heavy bullets right? What is the twist of your barrel and what bullet weights were you trying to shoot?

I think the twist of my AR is 1:10 but honestly can't remember. It's a Dtech with 20" Olympic barrel. I was trying to shoot 85 gr. TSX bullets but they just wouldn't shoot worth a hoot, which surprised me. I have been shooting 75 gr. Sierra HP's with good accuracy and penetration. I have taken a number of coyotes with that bullet, a couple of deer and three head-shot hogs not to mention various other critters like skunks, raccoons, fox, bobcats and crows.

I wanted the 85 gr. TSX for hog hunting but recently found out that my pet load 75 Sierras worked just fine and was plenty bullet for head shooting them at 120 yards. On a broadside deer the 75 Sierra bullet penetrated the lungs and exited. I guess the lower velocity of 2850 fps allows the bullet to behave a little more controlled vs. it being a varmint bullet out of a .243 or 6mm.

In order for the Barnes TSX to expand, you need good velocity. Barnes has a recommended velocity minimum for proper results. Lower velocities may not be enough for the bullets to expand properly.

As Dirty Dog mentioned, a lighter weight Barnes will give more velocity and insure better expansion. I am shooting 130 TTSX in my .308 and 140 gr. TSX in the 7mmSTW. You can go lighter than normal for caliber with the Barnes due to its construction and penetration abilities.

I have only recovered one TSX bullet from many heads of game. That was a 200+ pound boar hog from the .308 and 130 gr. TTSX at a distance of 87 yards. The bullet entered the neck, angled through the off side shoulder and stopped just short of exiting. The bullet fell out when skinning the hog. It was a classic and near perfect mushroom.
 
Originally Posted By: 6mm06
I think the twist of my AR is 1:10 but honestly can't remember. It's a Dtech with 20" Olympic barrel. I was trying to shoot 85 gr. TSX bullets but they just wouldn't shoot worth a hoot, which surprised me. I have been shooting 75 gr. Sierra HP's with good accuracy and penetration.

The Barnes 85 Gr. would be considerably longer than the 75 Gr. Sierra's I'd suspect. Might be too slow of a twist in the AR for the longer bullet....?


Originally Posted By: 6mm06
In order for the Barnes TSX to expand, you need good velocity. Barnes has a recommended velocity minimum for proper results. Lower velocities may not be enough for the bullets to expand properly..

This is the info I'm looking for but couldn't find on their website, do you know where it can be found? I'm looking at around 2800-3000 FPS out of the 70 grainer.


Originally Posted By: 6mm06
I have only recovered one TSX bullet from many heads of game. That was a 200+ pound boar hog from the .308 and 130 gr. TTSX at a distance of 87 yards. The bullet entered the neck, angled through the off side shoulder and stopped just short of exiting. The bullet fell out when skinning the hog. It was a classic and near perfect mushroom.

Very nice!
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Originally Posted By: reloader326DD - Maybe it's just advertising hype, but I like the idea of the bigger mushroom,

A 70gr TSX won't have a bigger mushroom than a smaller say 55gr TTSX or 62gr TSX.

Originally Posted By: reloader326DD - I was always worried about low velocity with a heavy .223 bullet, but I believe the Barnes TSX / TTSX are supposed to expand with lower velocity due to their structure.

A heavier TTSX will likey have slower/less expansion than a lighter TTSX because velocity is the driving force behind expansion and heavier bullets have less velocity than lighter bullets. Lighter bullets will also shoot flatter.

Both heavy and light TTSX will have very high (near 100%) weight retention. That's the design. TTSX are designed to start expanding faster than TSX and at slightly lower velocity.

Originally Posted By: reloader326DD - I thought I stumbled across that recommended velocity data some time ago, but I looked on Barnes website and could not find it.

TTSX will show minimal expansion at 1800 fps. TSX need an additional 100+ fps to show the same expansion. TTSX is designed to start expansion sooner than TSX at equal velocity. Higher velocities increase expansion, consider 1800-1900 fps the minimum impact velocity for good results.

A 223 70gr TSX @ 2900 fps will slow to 1900 fps at about 350 yards. Meaning after that it may expand very little or not at all.

Barnes recommends 223 45gr TSX for antelope. What does that tell you?

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Originally Posted By: reloader326The Barnes 85 Gr. would be considerably longer than the 75 Gr. Sierra's I'd suspect. Might be too slow of a twist in the AR for the longer bullet....?

This is the info I'm looking for but couldn't find on their website, do you know where it can be found? I'm looking at around 2800-3000 FPS out of the 70 grainer.

Possibly the 85 gr. could be better suited for a faster twist, not sure. However, I learned that a conventional bullet out of my 6x45 worked just fine for my
intended purpose and was much cheaper to purchase as well.

2800-3,000 fps in my opinion is expecting too much from a .223 case and a 70 gr. bullet. Once again as DD mentioned, you can go lighter and do as well, maybe
better, particularly with accuracy.

I phoned Barnes and spoke with a rep specifically about the .308 and bullets I wished to use. My aging mind doesn't remember exactly the velocity he told me,
but it was araound 1,900 to 2,000 fps as I recall. I also read a piece somewhere on the net that said basically the same thing. I had been shooting 150 TSX
and getting great groups, generally 1/2" 3-shot groups, but decided I wanted to make sure the bullet performed as it's supposed to, so I went lighter to 130 gr.
hoping for accuracy. It's accurate (TTSX) but slightly larger groups, about 5/8" or so. No hog on Earth will know the difference.

Here's the 130 TTSX as recovered from my hog. The bullet performed great as you can see.


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJClkkYIs5U&t=7s






 
Thanks guys I appreciate the help, I already ordered the 70 grain TSX, so I guess I’ll load them up and see how they group. Maybe I’ll try the lighter ones in the future. The chances that I’ll get to shoot anything with them are slim to none, they’re just aren’t that many coyotes around here. But I still love hunting for them anyway.
6mm06, I didn’t know you had a YouTube channel, you have a new subscriber.
 
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