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#3093255 - 09/25/17 08:26 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
stickbow_hunter Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 257
Loc: Pennsylvania
Awesome stuff guys and great thread. Appreciate the work!

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#3093288 - 09/25/17 10:24 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
New batch of bullets for tonight.


Speer 50 TNT, 40 Nosler BT, 50 Nosler BT.


75 Amax, 75 ELD-M in .224


95 Berger Classic Hunter, 95 Hornady SST in 6mm




Edited by Dirty Hippie (09/26/17 12:33 AM)
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3093311 - 09/26/17 12:43 AM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: JTPinTX]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: JTPinTX
Several years ago my daughter was 5, and about to start shooting deer with my CZ 223. I sectioned quite a few bullets like that, but took it one step further with the intention of finding the best bullet for her to shoot deer with out of a 12 twist.

I shot quite a few .224 bullets at 223 Rem velocities into wet newspaper. I standardized the way I did it. So many inches of newspaper in a certain size box, used a black trash bag in the box to hold the water in until it soaked into the paper. Same amount of water in each box, all that stuff. Then I shot bullets, several of each one tested. Then I would peel back the layers of newspaper, recording the depth of penetration, and also I think retained weight. I put all that data together in a chart.

I will see if I can remember to take a picture of that chart tonight and if I can I will post it up tomorrow. Pretty interesting results. The most impressive bullet was the CEB Raptor or Non Con, not sure which it was. It was bad to the bone though in a little rifle like that. I shot a couple deer with that bullet.

The bullet I ended up loading for her was the old discontinued 60 Nosler Solid Base. She killed several deer with that bullet until they were all gone. I think she will be shooting the Nosler 64 Bonded this year though.


That sounds like a lot of work and some serious dedication. That chart would be very cool to see.
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3093412 - 09/26/17 06:09 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
quickblood Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 229
Loc: PA
Great information here! Thanks for sharing. Will be following this thread!

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#3093416 - 09/26/17 06:25 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1637
Loc: arizona
Great information. Confirms my thoughts on the ballistic tip. Cant wait to see a 50-55 .224 blitz king. Wondering if it has a substantial base as the ballistic tip does?
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c'mon! Just one more stand!

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#3093436 - 09/26/17 07:29 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
I am getting a few extra bullets from my buddy tomorrow and the blitz kings are in the bag. I will have a 40 and a 50.
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3093448 - 09/26/17 08:25 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
shanedogg Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1637
Loc: arizona
^^^ Awesome!
_________________________
c'mon! Just one more stand!

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#3093605 - 09/27/17 12:24 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
JTPinTX Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1123
Loc: Wellington, TX
OK, things weren't all just the way I remembered, imagine that. My data was not all put together the way I thought so I had to go back and re-compile it. I can't find my third test I did that had all the data from the CEB Raptors and Non-cons, plus some other bullets. I will see if I can find it and add it later. For now this is what I have.

I did the original test with just standard wet newsprint. It worked out great. On the second test I had some expanded PVC sheet that was 1/8" thick. I thought it would be good to try and add some hard resistance into the test so I added a sheet in at 1.5", 5.5" and 8.5". That PVC sheet really changed things up. The Barnes load I used as standard, it reduced penetration by about 20%. Keeping that in mind, I really think that would have placed the 63 Sierra SMP and 60 Horn HP in the same class as the 60 Nosler Solid Base and 64 Win PP from the first test.

As best I remember the penetration of the CEB bullets was on par with the Barnes 53, but the damage pattern was much wider. The deer I shot with the CEB showed that same star pattern from the detached petals that showed up in wet newsprint, and in the videos of the ballistics gel tests they used to (and may still have) up on their website.

Also note that on the second test, those little 40 NBT's actually did pretty dang good, considering. Better than some of the varmint bullets in the first test, AND they were having to bust through that PVC sheet. I had it on fairly good authority that any of the NBT's in varmint offerings actually penetrate much better than most other varmint bullets due to the solid base on them. It did prove true in this test.

FullSizeR by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/156517515@N04/][/url], on Flickr


Edited by JTPinTX (09/27/17 12:27 PM)

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#3093622 - 09/27/17 12:52 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
JTPinTX Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1123
Loc: Wellington, TX
Hmmm, been a while since I had been to the CEB website. They have changed up quite a bit it seems. Most of their bullets now are copper instead of the bronze ones I was shooting. The 55 Non Con is no longer listed, but the 40 Raptor still is, and it is the original bronze petal design. They didn't dig quite as deep at the 55, but are great in the 12 twist. The 55 Non Cons were on the edge of being stabilized in my 12 twist, and that was without the tips on them.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/224-40gr-esp-raptor

HM1996, it sure is a shame they discontinued that Solid Base line. It was a heck of a bullet for sure.

Also, I would actually like to test a few more bullets sometime, just for giggles. I will have to save up some newspaper though. Next test would have a 55 NBT, 60 NBT, and for sure the Nosler 64 Bonded, plus whatever else I could scrounge up. I bet the 64 bonded would be impressive.

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#3093722 - 09/27/17 06:52 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: JTPinTX]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 16264
Loc: S. Texas
Originally Posted By: JTPinTX
I had it on fairly good authority that any of the NBT's in varmint offerings actually penetrate much better than most other varmint bullets due to the solid base on them. It did prove true in this test.


That's some good data on the penetration tests, James.

Culled a number of S. Tx. whitetail does while coyote hunting with the 55 gr. NBT's in .223. All neck shots & were DRT with the little bullet.

Originally Posted By: JTPinTX
HM1996, it sure is a shame they discontinued that Solid Base line. It was a heck of a bullet for sure.


As usual, I was a day late and a dollar short in discovering the Nosler SB's after they were discontinued. Did luck out and got in on the 100 gr. 6mm overrun.

I suspect Nosler discontinued the SB's as the BT's appear to be built on the SB cup:





Regards,
hm
_________________________
If what's ahead scares you and what's behind hurts you, look up; He never fails you.

If My people will humble themselves, pray, seek My face & turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven & will forgive their sin & heal their land.




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#3094043 - 09/29/17 09:56 AM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: JTPinTX]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: JTPinTX
OK, things weren't all just the way I remembered, imagine that. My data was not all put together the way I thought so I had to go back and re-compile it. I can't find my third test I did that had all the data from the CEB Raptors and Non-cons, plus some other bullets. I will see if I can find it and add it later. For now this is what I have.

I did the original test with just standard wet newsprint. It worked out great. On the second test I had some expanded PVC sheet that was 1/8" thick. I thought it would be good to try and add some hard resistance into the test so I added a sheet in at 1.5", 5.5" and 8.5". That PVC sheet really changed things up. The Barnes load I used as standard, it reduced penetration by about 20%. Keeping that in mind, I really think that would have placed the 63 Sierra SMP and 60 Horn HP in the same class as the 60 Nosler Solid Base and 64 Win PP from the first test.

As best I remember the penetration of the CEB bullets was on par with the Barnes 53, but the damage pattern was much wider. The deer I shot with the CEB showed that same star pattern from the detached petals that showed up in wet newsprint, and in the videos of the ballistics gel tests they used to (and may still have) up on their website.

Also note that on the second test, those little 40 NBT's actually did pretty dang good, considering. Better than some of the varmint bullets in the first test, AND they were having to bust through that PVC sheet. I had it on fairly good authority that any of the NBT's in varmint offerings actually penetrate much better than most other varmint bullets due to the solid base on them. It did prove true in this test.

FullSizeR by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/156517515@N04/][/url], on Flickr


Thanks for posting this info. That little 40 NBT did pretty darn good.
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3095539 - 10/06/17 01:00 AM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
Here is another round of bullets in .223 .243 and .257


Left to right in .223 Speer 55 spitzer, Sierra 40 Blitz, 50 Blitz, 80 Amax, Hornady 75 BTHP, Sierra 69 BTHP, 55 Nosler Varmagedon FBHP, 36 Barnes Varmint Grenade.


.243 left to right Sierra 75 HP, 75 Vmax, Speer 85 BT, 87 Vmax, 105 Barnes Match Burner, 105 Berger VLD, 105 Amax.



.257 left to right 115 Berger VLD, 115 Nosler BT, 85 Nosler BT, 75 Vmax, 70 Sierra Blitz King.








Edited by Dirty Hippie (07/02/18 07:34 PM)
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3095545 - 10/06/17 01:51 AM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
Dirty Hippie Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 424
Loc: Utah
I did find some things interesting while sanding all these bullets down. Hornady's tips including the Vmax and Amax can withstand more heat without melting than Sierra or Nosler tips. If Hornady's melting tip theory is correct, their bullets will likely maintain better Ballistic coefficients than the other polymer tip bullets.
The cross sections of this collection of bullets is pretty cool, but even though the bullets may look generally the same in design they are not at all the same. I believe that one of the biggest differences in all these bullets is the alloys that are used in their construction. After sanding these down it seems that the jackets and cores vary between manufacturers and even different bullets of the same manufacturer.
The Speer bullets are very soft inside and out and felt like they may be close to pure copper and lead. They were hard to hold (with pliers) without crushing them. The Sierra bullets were also somewhat soft and they clogged up the sand paper with their softer lead. Hornady seemed to have the hardest lead with almost no lead build up on the sand paper. The Barnes varmint grenade looks like solid copper but if you zoom in you can see the core is seperate from the jacket. The core is hard and was very easy to sand through with no clogging of the sand paper.
I will have to look into ways to test the core and jacket hardness to know for sure, but it does seem to be the main differentiator to this not very scientific approach at understanding bullet construction.
DH
_________________________
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It will give you something to do, but won't get you anywhere.

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#3152533 - 06/26/18 10:25 AM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
Ghilliedup2 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 12/14/17
Posts: 173
Loc: So IL
I know this is old but I just now came across it and thought it was a great thread that id like to see more of. Or maybe someone can point me towards some similar info, particularly with 22 & 24 cal bullets.

One thing I noticed that wasn't mentioned was how thick the jacket was on the nosler varmegeddeon vs the bt, especially as it gets closer to the tip. It also seem the varmegeddeon has a thicker jacket than most of the other varmint bullets, yet I believe nosler uses a softer pure lead core.
Also in the 6mm the 85gr speer seems much thinner than the 87gr vmax, I would have assumed otherwise although I haven't found the 87 to be that explosive compared to most varmint rounds. I know in the 243w the velocity is less on the 87 (2975fps from my handloads) but ive used it on several smaller critter and it's performed more like deer bullet producing exits that were normal size. I know Hornady sells a 87gr reduced recoil load in 243 marketed for deer and it's labeled as a "87gr sst" with a MV of 2800 i believe,although both it's appearance and bc is .400 just like the 87gr vmax, as far as I know they don't produce an 87gr SST. So I may be mistaken but from my thinking they have simply loaded the 87gr Vmax at a reduced recoil/velocity and called it a SST. It also has good reviews from it's users on deer. So if I am correct this really shows the "varmint bullets are meant for varmints, target bullets for targets " isn't always the case.
Like I said I could be wrong but none the less I Thought that as well as all the photos were very interesting. And would like to see this thread continued

Thank you to those that took the time to sand bullets and post the pics!
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Savage 11 predator hunter 243
Marlin XS7 243
Armalite 16" ar
Savage 93 17hmr

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#3152571 - 06/26/18 02:55 PM Re: Bullet Cross Sections [Re: Dirty Hippie]
hm1996 Offline
PM Junkie

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 16264
Loc: S. Texas
Originally Posted By: Dirty Hippie
My method of sanding these bullets down is pretty ghetto. I use 60 grit paper to get through the jacket then move down to 120 for the finished look. I held them gently with little slip joint pliers to keep from crushing them. It Takes less than 10 minutes per bullet. Hm1996 had cool idea to mount them on a plaque, which I will be doing as I get through the bullets I have in stock. The more bullets posted up will just make this thread more useful.


Finally got around to mounting some bullets on a board.


Top row .375 L>R: 300 gr NP; 300 gr. Swift A Frame recovered from eland shoulder; Hornady 270 gr. NRN, and below the A Frame is Nosler 260 gr. Partition.

Row 2 .223 L>R: Hornady 50 SX; Sierra 55 BK; Nosler 55 BT. Center is the .375 260 NP on right side 6mm
Nosler 100 Solid Base; 85 gr. NP & 85 gr. NBT

Row 3 .308 L>R: 125 NBT; Nosler 150 Accubond; 168 gr. NP; Nosler 168 Accubond; Hornady 150 Spire Point



Row 4 .338 L>R: 225 gr. NAB; 250 Hornady Interbond; and my favorite 210 NP below two 210's recovered from nilgai; 250 Hornady Interbond; 265 gr. Nosler LRAB*

* Long Range Accubond (.778 BC!). Currently working up a load with this new bullet for possible eland hunt.

Regards,
hm
_________________________
If what's ahead scares you and what's behind hurts you, look up; He never fails you.

If My people will humble themselves, pray, seek My face & turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven & will forgive their sin & heal their land.




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