Annealing

cclark

New member
Opinions on annealing? I just read up on it on another forum and the gist of it was that it’s unnecessary. That came from well known and very accomplished shooter. I don’t question what he is saying but I’m not going to stop doing it. I have the bench-source annealer and it’s way to fast and easy to stop. It may or may not help from a accuracy standpoint but it has to help my brass life. I also probably don’t shoot well enough to to a difference☹️ Chris
 
Originally Posted By: cclark It may or may not help from a accuracy standpoint but it has to help my brass life. I also probably don’t shoot well enough to to a difference☹️ Chris

It is not the accuracy that it is going to help. It is to extend the life of your brass. Some calibers it will help the life a lot.
 
I only rarely do it. The only way my cases ever "wear out", is loose primer pockets, which annealing can do nothing to slow down. So it can't do anything to increase the life of my cases.

Once in a great while after many loadings a batch will get a bit hard to bump the shoulders on and start needing it more often. That's when I'll anneal. But, that is well over a dozen firings before that point is reached and for most of my rifles I run them hot enough to get those loose primer pockets before they get to that point.

So, for me, no, I don't bother and see no potential benefit to starting.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: DAAI only rarely do it. The only way my cases ever "wear out", is loose primer pockets, which annealing can do nothing to slow down. So it can't do anything to increase the life of my cases.

Once in a great while after many loadings a batch will get a bit hard to bump the shoulders on and start needing it more often. That's when I'll anneal. But, that is well over a dozen firings before that point is reached and for most of my rifles I run them hot enough to get those loose primer pockets before they get to that point.

So, for me, no, I don't bother and see no potential benefit to starting.

- DAA

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That was just one opinion - I'm sure there are accomplished benchrest/high power/long-range shooters who will say annealing the brass is just one of many things they do to their brass for peak accuracy, shot to shot.

I send my brass off to get them annealed every now and again - my opinion is; annealing done right sure won't hurt anything and it just might help.
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Originally Posted By: JoeyJThat was just one opinion - I'm sure there are accomplished benchrest/high power/long-range shooters who will say annealing the brass is just one of many things they do to their brass for peak accuracy, shot to shot.

I send my brass off to get them annealed every now and again - my opinion is; annealing done right sure won't hurt anything and it just might help.
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For me annealing is mandatory and absolutely helps with accuracy due to consistent neck tension of projectile. There's a few other reasons I do it as well... with that said, if others don't find it useful for them, carry on
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I'm personally very skeptical about the accuracy advantages of frequent annealing. I just don't buy it, frankly.

I'll put it this way, if I believed it would actually help, I'd do it. I'm ALL about accuracy. Give me more, more, more! If all I had to do was pay $500 or whatever for a machine and pop my brass in it every loading cycle like a batch of cookies and - voila! More accuracy! Heck yes, I'd do that. In a heart beat.

But what small amount of testing/experience I have, it makes no noticeable difference. In my rifles.

Five shot groups, brass that had been loaded about fifteen times and never annealed.

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This is one of the few rifles that I do occasionally anneal the brass for - some of the brass for it have been loaded over 50 times. It eventually gets work hardened enough that it becomes difficult to shoulder bump as needed. But annealing has never made any difference in accuracy in it that I could ever tell.

I personally think the accuracy gains of annealing are vastly over hyped. I mean, I don't doubt it can and does help. For really good shooters and really accurate rifles chasing world record accuracy at long range. I think there is probably a real statistical advantage. But I think the vast majority of rifles out there, like 98% of them, aren't anywhere near accurate enough to ever show the tiny difference that might exist.

I just honestly don't believe it will make any noticeable difference in accuracy at all, in any of "my" rifles. For the way "I" use them. Else I'd be doing it. But, I don't.

- DAA
 
BTW... The argument for accuracy from annealing that I always hear is consistent neck tension. I could go on and on about that, but I'll spare y'all and skip it. Except to say, that it reminds me of asking someone when did they stop beating their wife. In other words, what makes you think you have inconsistent neck tension to begin with? How did that happen? I don't believe that I do have inconsistent neck tension, I think my neck tension is rather satisfactory consistent, thank you, without any bother with annealing.

But think of this... If consistent neck tension is what ye truly seek, look to lubrication of bullet and neck. Depending, on what you actually mean, by "neck tension".

Because... What is neck tension, really? By that I mean, if you wanted to measure it, to see what things you could do to really improve it and test how much if any difference that improvement makes, how would you go about it?

There were some really fantastic conversations about this, decades ago. Talented men involved. Well capable of building test fixtures and shooting accurate to collect data. The glory days of bench rest. They used to discuss and publish all kinds of great tests on this kind of stuff. Too bad the internet killed Precision Shooting...

One popular way of measuring one definition of neck tension were the devices that measured the force required to push/move the bullet a certain amount in the neck. If that sounds like a good way to measure neck tension to you, then you should consider the comment about lubrication above - it's King of consistent neck tension when measured in this fashion. Moly, Lee wax, etc.

But, what does that form of measurement really tell you? Really? Think about it - at what point in the firing of a round is a bullet overcoming that tension and moving against it in that way? Does it actually ever, at all? Maybe not? Maybe for such a short distance and time it's inconsequential? Maybe?

So, again, what "is" this neck tension. How is consistency of it important to accuracy? What is the actual mechanics of the influence? How would you measure it?

Some believe the importance is not in the bullet overcoming friction to move but in the sealing of the pressure vessel and build up of the burning powder pressure expanding it and over coming it. This same school of thought has shown actual accuracy improvement with crimping, in certain controlled applications.

And so on...

- DAA
 
You can get variance of neck tension by hardness of the brass, which the annealing gives it the consistency and uniformity... but we get it you don't like it
 
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I'm shooting brass in my 30-06 that I started reloading in 92/93. I neck size this brass only.

loads are always at or just under max in this rifle. I don't keep count of how many times each case gets loaded, don't even try. I do check for incipient case head separation after cleaning and sizing it, if I feel the start of a ring it gets tossed.

I've never annealed anything in my life. I've been wondering if I'm missing out on something but so far it seems to be OK.

I know it's supposed to get work hardened, maybe split the necks or something, but I just haven't seen it yet.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

I recently bought 200 new cases -last new ones were bought in 93, I think- just so I could have some new brass of the same brand to match what I've been using but I'm not seeing any real reason to simply discard the old.
 
Originally Posted By: thegoodlifeYou can get variance of neck tension by hardness of the brass, which the annealing gives it the consistency and uniformity... but we get it you don't like it

How did it get inconsistent in hardness? I'm just asking. It ain't personal. And no, it's not about like or don't like. It's about what I think can actually be demonstrated vs. what I think is mostly just wishful thinking.

And, I could always be dead wrong.

But, I'm truly curious. I always hear about all this inconsistent hardness that annealing takes care of. I totally agree, annealing will take care of that.

But... Is it really inconsistent? Really? How come? How did that happen? I don't think mine is?

Like I said, it reminds me of the old when did you stop beating your wife bit. Everyone talks about this hardness variation, but I never hear any explanation of how that happened or any evidence that is actually has happened.

So, I wonder about this stuff...

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: Stu Farish
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

I recently bought 200 new cases -last new ones were bought in 93, I think- just so I could have some new brass of the same brand to match what I've been using but I'm not seeing any real reason to simply discard the old.



As the old saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it

As long as you don't have loose primer pockets, or noticeable defects there's no reason to discard it....fire away!
 
Originally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: thegoodlifeYou can get variance of neck tension by hardness of the brass, which the annealing gives it the consistency and uniformity... but we get it you don't like it

How did it get inconsistent in hardness? I'm just asking. It ain't personal. And no, it's not about like or don't like. It's about what I think can actually be demonstrated vs. what I think is mostly just wishful thinking

So, I wonder about this stuff...

- DAA

Brass becomes hardened by the conforming to chamber when shooting it and then running it through your dies. The continued stretching of the metal is what Harden's it
 
Originally Posted By: thegoodlifeYou can get variance of neck tension by hardness of the brass, which the annealing gives it the consistency and uniformity... but we get it you don't like it

And another thing...

I ain't trying to pick on you, you were just the first one brave enough to try and answer any of my questions
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.

But humor me for a minute and follow along.

Let's say, we do have inconsistent hardness and variation in neck tension. Just terrible inconsistent! Okay, so we anneal, now we have wonderfully uniform consistency of hardness and neck tension. Awesome!

How much difference - real MEASURABLE difference - as measured in group size, does anyone think that could make? .050 MOA? More, less?

Be very interested in what the proponents of the accuracy benefit of annealing think? I really would. Put a number on it. What do you think it's worth, in real MOA?

I think it has to be less than .050. I mean, when it comes to real accuracy, .050 is a LOT. A whole lot. It's the difference between 1st place and about 100th place at a big bench rest match. My guess, for a rifle accurate enough to actually show the difference, it's not worth more than .025 MOA. In some circles, .025 MOA is still a whole heckuva lot.

But, let's say it's .050. Heck, let's go with it and say it's worth .075 MOA. Three quarters of a tenth, which is a chit ton, huge, if we're talking real accuracy.

My next question would be... How many rifles, can shoot well enough to really show .075 MOA? Less than a tenth. I know I do own several that absolutely can (they show no improvement from annealing though...). But those are high end customs. I have rarely seen a factory rifle that could show .075 as a consistent thing. My own guess, is less than 5% of the rifles owned by the members of this board could show that difference.

But I'm also guessing that is way more difference than annealing will actually provide! Because that is just such a big number. If it could really do that, there would be a lot of data around to support it and I'd have me an annealing machine for sure.

I'm even guessing that most well cared for and conscientiously loaded brass does not suffer from significant hardness and neck thickness variations. And anyone that would frequently anneal, would surely qualify as conscientious of their brass.

Add it up, and, well, I'm skeptical of all this annealing accuracy stuff. I really think it's me too marketing and wishful thinking. Before there were $500 machines to do it, nobody ever got too excited about it and there was plenty of experimentation and talk and such.

I could be wrong...

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: thegoodlife
Brass becomes hardened by the conforming to chamber when shooting it and then running it through your dies. The continued stretching of the metal is what Harden's it

How does that process lend itself to creating inconsistency? Why doesn't it tend to harden fairly consistently?

I think it does tend to harden fairly consistently.

I do fully realize there is a huge difference in the amount of work hardening that occurs, too. My brass barely gets worked at all.

Other guys, with big sloppy factory chambers, FL sizing every loading, with the die at hard cam using an expander and just work the piss out of their poor brass. They'll get more work hardening in one cycle than I will in ten.

So, I can see the appeal, there. I'd want to do something for that poor abused brass too.

But, sloppy chambers and over sizing and over working of brass is not a precision approach, either. It's highly unlikely a system being used like that could show a difference of .075. Which, I think is probably way more difference than annealing would typically make.

But anyway... I get how work hardening happens. What I don't get is how this epidemic of it being inconsistent is happening?

- DAA
 
Couple of things off top my head that I notice when I reload with annealed brass.

I seem to have consistent pressure with each piece of brass while resizing. When I have Harden brass it takes a little bit more pressure ( not a lot but noticeable)

I bump my shoulders .003 from the headspace for semis, while using annealed brass... I don't get the bounce back that I do from hardened brass. It stays very consistent.

These are just a couple of my observations
 
Originally Posted By: DAA
thegoodlife said:
But anyway... I get how work hardening happens. What I don't get is how this epidemic of it being inconsistent is happening? - DAA

I take it you're shooting tight necked chambers in some of your rifles with the Jewell trigger - hard to shoot those group sizes without? Speaking from an ole benchshooter's perspective - why did we uniform primer pockets, flash holes, lapp scope rings, weigh cases, go to titian firing pins, freeze barrels after they already were heat treated and anneal brass after each firing or after a couple firings etc etc?

Lots of things were done to gain an additional 0.01" consistent accuracy. I shot several 0.101"/0.102" groups at 100 yards - I put down either $3 or $5 for a re-measurement and forfeited my money for insulting the target crew. Never did get a "screamer patch" (0.099 or smaller group at 100 yards or 0.199" at 200 yards) but I tried every improvement in the book, as someone saw a consistent improvement in a way they worked their brass or rifle.

I froze every one of my match barrels and never saw an improvement - didn't hurt the barrel any but no improvement, like some top shooters were reporting. Some benefited, some didn't - not sure if whatever I did was an actual improvement and I was the weak link - Ya, it was probably me.

Shooters holding 100 or 200 yard international records all have opinions on what makes an accurate rifle - I would take their advice to heart and practice until I was as good as them. My problem was I ran out of time - should have started when I was a kid.
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I will throw in here and touch on the subject.
I anneal. I have been since about 1992-93.
It started off with a wildcat, fire formed, then a load, then another load,Mao I will call it three. Necks would snap off on the third loading and stick in the chamber, not hard to get out,just a pita. Brass was brand new virgin. I fought this for quite a while. Long enough that the rifle got pushed to the back. Fire form loads were accurate but not enough speed.
I tossed all of that lot of brass, 500 and started over. New virgin, annealed before fire forming. I now anneal after every third loading with this rifle. All is well and the lot of 500 has right at 12 loadings on it. None lost to splits on the neck.
This rifle if I wanted to I could spend a few hundred on bushing dies and all would be better.
The dies under size way to much, then the expander drags it back open!
That is a large amount of neck issues that I have run across in a pile of calibers!

Why size the blasted necks down so far under then drag them back over the expander which in turn can do something me bad things.

I wish the die makers would wake up on that. There is no need to size the neck down so blasted far, only to drag it back over an expander. Size the neck enough that the expander just has a slip fit.

I won't say annealing is a must do. Though I have read where on well known shooter/ writer a meals every time and swears by it.

If one decides in there mind that doing something does make a difference, it may be more a confidence thing rather than a true aid. I am not afraid of black cats, opening umbrellas inside, walking under ladders etc. I do eat and drink certain things on a match day though. No I don't have a troll doll in my shooting box either, lol.

It will be most interesting next month. I am kicking the tobbaco habit, doing well thus far no set backs and heading towards 10 days clean. Will have to sell my stock in Copenhagen.
Jeff
 
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