A Question for Atheists

In Rules for Radicals, the handbook for American anarchists and communists, American community organizer and writer Saul Alinsky wrote at the end of his personal acknowledgements:


"Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom – Lucifer."
 
Hi all, lively discussion going here. I'm not an atheist but I'm going to answer anyway.
I'm an agnostic, from a family of agnostics and outright atheists, quite a few of us here in Australia, 48% at the 2016 census, but even though many comments here have asserted that we agnostics and atheists aggressively promote our non-belief in the supernatural, I have never had any come to my door to try to convert any possible believers to non-belief. All the itinerant proselytisers I have met have been on the other side of the discussion.
My maternal grandfather spent nearly 4 years as a non-combatant stretcher bearer on the Western Front during WW1, and he returned convinced that there either was no god or that if there was a god that would allow his creations to visit such horrendous torments on each other, he was not worthy of worship.
Whenever I have mentioned this to those who have tried converting me, they always use the same argument, that their god loves his children and gave them free will. To which my response is always the same, I love my children, I want them to have free will, but I would not stand by and watch them play on the freeway.
Having said that, now for my opinion on the subject, and I freely admit that that is all it can ever be as I have no more means of proving what I believe than people of faith have of proving theirs, and I simply cannot believe in something that seemingly defies logic without concrete, testable proof.
I think that to be a totally committed atheist is to be as closed in ones thinking as to be a totally committed theist of any persuasion.
Nobody, on either side, has ever been able to demonstrate definitive, incontrovertible proof one way or the other, and any idea without proof is forever merely theory.
I would love for there to be such proof that a god exists because I truly envy the comfort that those who believe get from their belief that they will one day be reunited with their departed loved ones. For myself, and those of like mind, there is only the perpetual grief at their loss.
Everyone should be allowed to believe whatever it takes to get them through the day, without being ridiculed or persecuted, as long as they allow that same right for everyone else.
If you need to believe in a god, good for you. If you don't, good for you too.
It should always be treated with the respect that something so deeply personal deserves.
 
It is possible for an agnostic to hold a reverence for God without fully knowing if one exists. For those who are wondering about the difference between an agnostic and an atheist, the following is from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Many people are interested in distinguishing between the words agnostic and atheist. The difference is quite simple: atheist refers to someone who believes that there is no god (or gods), and agnostic refers to someone who doesn’t know whether there is a god, or even if such a thing is knowable. This distinction can be troublesome to remember, but examining the origins of the two words can help.

Agnostic first appeared in 1869, (possibly coined by the English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley), and was formed from the Greek agnōstos (meaning "unknown, unknowable"). Atheist came to English from the French athéisme. Although both words share a prefix (which is probably the source of much of the confusion) the main body of each word is quite different. Agnostic shares part of its history with words such as prognosticate and prognosis, words which have something to do with knowledge or knowing something. Atheist shares roots with words such as theology and theism, which generally have something to do with God.
 
"It is possible for an agnostic to hold a reverence for God without fully knowing if one exists."

As an agnostic, I would have to respectfully disagree. There may be others for whom it's possible, but I cannot speak for them.
I was raised to question everything, to look for logic, proof and evidence before declaring something as absolute as a "truth". It's what got me kicked out of Sunday School at 6yrs old.
It may seem strange for a family of agnostics to send their children to religious education, but it was part of giving us a balanced view of the world. We were shown both sides of the issue and allowed to decide which suited us the best.

I realise that, to some, agnosticism seems a vanity, a claim to be more open-minded than those who declare definite belief or non-belief. I have even been accused, by both atheists and believers, of not having the courage to have a conviction one way or the other, but how can I claim a conviction when my mindset needs logical proof.
I believe ancient man invented the concept of gods to fill the gaps in their knowledge of the nature of things, a way for elders and leaders to avoid losing their mojo when asked questions they were not intellectually equipped to answer.
I can only see things like the direct correlation between the growth of scientific knowledge and the diminution of reports of "miracles" as an indication that this is likely to be the case.
 
Your opinion is as valid, or invalid, as anyone else's since the existence of God can neither be proven or disproven. As stated above theism is about belief where gnosticism is about knowledge. You might be an agnostic atheist since your mindset requires logical proof.I might be an agnostic theist since my faith allows me to forego proof. Neither of us can be certain of our positions since there is no absolute proof either way.
You should read the thought provoking article 'Why Science Does Not Disprove God'. The following is an excerpt from that article:

"The incredible fine-tuning of the universe presents the most powerful argument for the existence of an immanent creative entity we may well call God. Lacking convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, such a power may be necessary to force all the parameters we need for our existence—cosmological, physical, chemical, biological and cognitive—to be what they are."
http://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/
 
The study of Lucifarianism helps to explain why science is getting more and more advanced and why miracles are getting reported less and less.

Our civilization has built a tiny thread thin pedestal that is carrying us further and further away from the planet God created, all the creatures he has put on it and the natural order of things. There are endless amounts of helpless [beeep](t!ts is beeped out?) out there that would curl up and die without any man made gizmos or a man made supply of food, water and clothing. We are moving further and further away from God, most people completely rely on other people.

It's like saying doctors are useless, but you never go see him or take his advice so your health keeps declining. In this case our spiritual health.

I should also add, with Lucifarians there is nothing stopping them from becoming priests, rabis or any other leader of a different religion, in fact, it's encouraged and practiced. They will do whatever possible to pervert the truth. This is the biggest roadblock I see causing the growth of atheism. God and the understanding of true good and evil can only be found from within yourself, if you're waiting for someone else to show you evidence you aren't going to get any.
 
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The late Dr Aczel raised some interesting questions in this article, as he did in his 2005 book "God's Equation: Einstein, Relativity, and the Expanding Universe".
Some of these questions are answerable, some are not yet answerable.
He asks, albeit in a roundabout way, "is god necessary?" to which I would have to say yes. Even though I, and a growing number of others, have no need for the concept, the fact that several billion people still feel the need to believe would indicate that for their lives to be complete, the concept of a deity is indeed still necessary. For some.

He says, "Science is an amazing, wonderful undertaking: it teaches us about life, the world and the universe. But it has not revealed to us why the universe came into existence nor what preceded its birth in the Big Bang."
Quite correct, but then every discovery we have ever made has been the revelation of knowledge of which we simply were previously unaware. We don't know enough, yet, to cure cancer, but that does not preclude the eventual discovery that will.

He also goes on to say "Neither does it explain one of the greatest mysteries of science: how did consciousness arise in living things? Where do symbolic thinking and self-awareness come from?"
My own studies in biology and psychology have led me to the conclusion (opinion yet again) that consciousness and the ability for abstract thought are merely an inevitable function of the complexity of the organ in which that consciousness resides. Humans have the most complex brains of all animals. The greater the complexity, the more connections possible in a brain, the more things of which the owner of that brain is capable.

His final 5 paragraphs, however, I find very disappointing from someone of his stature. He talks of things just appearing "as if by magic", asks basically why are things just right for matter and life to exist, and in not so many words suggests that because we don't yet have a definitive answer, that there must be design behind them.
For me this takes us back to the ancient elders inventing intelligent design to dismiss questions they lack the knowledge to answer.
 
Hi Rock Knocker.
I wondered when Luciferians would be brought into the conversation.
While the following will perhaps be confronting to your beliefs, it is offered with respect for your right to hold them, and the hope you will respect my right to hold mine.

Your first sentence is quite true, Luciferian-like principals have driven scientific advancement and the growth of our knowledge of our environment, and as a natural consequence of wider knowledge, things that would once have been considered magical or miraculous are now accepted as commonplace simply because the principles behind them are understood. You would have met a nasty end, for example, if you were found in possession of a smart phone in Salem in 1692.

Unfortunately you appear to mistakenly conflate Luciferianism with Satanism, and you have your facts about them back to front.

You state that there is nothing to stop a Luciferian from becoming a priest or rabbi and say that it is encouraged. This is totally untrue. Luciferians, by their very nature do not believe in hierarchical organised religions, they see them as counter productive to progressive thought and as such they shun them. Rather they encourage individual study and learning, and view the mythical Lucifer in the original meaning, that of a bringer of enlightenment. They do not worship this figure it is merely a symbol to represent their ideals. In fact the very concept of worship is rejected.

You also assert that Luciferians "do whatever is possible to pervert the truth", whereas the opposite is the case. Luciferians seek objective, provable truth, rather than clinging to ancient dogmas, and are ever ready to accept change when evidence shows them that what they originally thought to be truth was otherwise. I do understand that, for a religious person, anything that provides evidence contrary to the beliefs they hold dear is considered as a "perversion".
Your last sentence actually describes the Luciferian outlook very well, that the true nature of good and evil is within ourselves, they hold this as a central tenet, and it is one of the main reasons they see no need for outside control of their lives and minds.

https://www.thoughtco.com/luciferian-principles-95784
 
IMHO, Luciferianism is another bazar belief system held by a few in this country, mostly young leftists and atheists. Luciferianism is being taught in our colleges and universities. But again, it's just my opinion.


 
Hi ADK.
Firstly, you too are confusing Luciferians with Satanists. Because both terms are used by Christians to refer to their devil figure, this is a common mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#In_Isaiah_14:12

When you base your entire argument on a false premise, you undermine the value of everything that follows.
If you build your house on sand etc.

Point 1: The purpose of the UN World Health Organisation is to enslave humanity under a Satanistic dictatorship? Really? I mean...really?

Your mistake in point 2 is another result of your conflation of the names Lucifer and Satan.

Point 3, I admit, has me confused. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim, even the Luciferians, that Luciferianism aims to see everyone homogenised. How you connect this with the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation is beyond me.

Point 4: You claim "Where God permits, encourages and rewards individual initiative, Luciferianism does not tolerate it in any shape or form." This is also the exact opposite of Luciferian principles, they are all about individualism and being free from constricting dogma.

Point 5 is yet another mistake directly attributable to the conflation of the two names.

Point 6: you are correct, Luciferians do believe in enjoying "carnal" pleasures.

Point 7: Russell's "The Impact of Science on Society" is a speculative treatise on what could be a possible result of a scientific oligarcy based on totalitarian systems like fascism or communism, not as you seem to present it as a direct prophecy of the results of some conspiracy against mankind. Just for clarity on this point here is the complete paragraph in context:

"A totalitarian government with a scientific bent might do
things that to us would seem horrifying. The Nazis were
more scientific than the present rulers of Russia, and were
more inclined towards the sort of atrocities than I have in
mind. They were said — I do not know with what truth — to
use prisoners in concentration camps as material for all kinds
of experiments, some involving death after much pain. If
they had survived, they would probably have soon taken to
scientific breeding. Any nation which adopts this practice
will, within a generation, secure great military advantages.
The system, one may surmise, will be something like this:
except possibly in the governing aristocracy, all but 5 per
cent of males and 30 per cent of females will be sterilized.
The 30 per cent of females will be expected to spend the
years from eighteen to forty in reproduction, in order to
secure adequate cannon fodder. As a rule, artificial insemina-
tion will be preferred to the natural method."

As to artificial insemination being made possible by "recent discoveries", it was first successfully performed on dogs by Lazzaro Spallanzani in 1780, hardly recent. We have been using this technique as a cost effective way to introduce new genetic lines in our Merino flock for decades.

Point 8 is all about Christian doctrine and not relevant to Luciferianism.

Point 9 is also a continued conflation of the names, Pike was a Mason who made the same conflationary mistake. You also directly quote, without attribution, from William Guy Carr.

Point 10 seems to suggest, by your use of the word goyim, the Jewish name for non-Jews, that Luciferians have some sort of Hebrew connection, more confusion.

Points 11 and 12 are yet more mistaken, or perhaps deliberate, conflation of Luciferian doctrine with Satanism. People always try to demonise that which they feel threatens them.

Point 13 is another complete opposite. Luciferianism sees women as equal to men in all ways, some even revere them as sacred. Your statement that "Today it has advanced to the stage where women have demanded the ‘right’ to adopt the same immoral codes as men" seems to suggest you don't believe they deserve these rights.

As to your conclusion; as most of what you have presented here seems to be drawn directly from readings of people like Guy Carr, a notorious conspiracy pedlar, Albert Pike the Freemason and borderline Satanist, and from Bertrand Russell taken totally out of context, and based on the mistaken conflation of Luciferians with Satanists, a group they see as similar to Christians in that they both feel the need to think of themselves as chattels of a superior being, I can only suggest further reading.
It is always tempting to be drawn to that which supports one's world view, but to be truly open minded one also has to study that which contradicts that view. In point 15 you claim " God’s plan of creation placed everything He created in perfect balance." if you only look for that which supports your view and ignore that which detracts, you can never achieve that balance.

It is obvious from your comment that your faith is a very important part of your life and the above is in no way intended to try to change or demean that faith or your need to hold it. I simply wish to suggest that a wider study seems in order.
Some of the most enjoyable and enlightening discussions I have had in my life were with people of faith who were also of the belief that there is nothing truly black or white in the world.
A late and great friend of mine was a Jesuit who firmly believed that his god created ALL men in his image, believers, non-believers, agnostics and even Luciferians, and that the concept of freedom of religion also meant the freedom from religion. He believed that if these differing philosophies were able to exist it was because his god wanted it that way.
 
I didn't try too hard to tell the different acts between Luciferianism and Satanism.

One warships Lucifer as the light bringer/enlightened one, from the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent with the apple. Giving us the ability to become our own gods.

The other warships Satan, known as a liar, deceiver and trying to mock everything God has done.

The lines are blurred and considering a group that warships the same thing whether it's Satan or Lucifer, there is no consideration for morals and the lines get crossed all the time. You can be, and I am sure there are Lucifarians that practice forms of Satanism and there are Satanists with a Lucifarian agenda.

I have no doubt there are Satanists masquerading as priests, attempting to undermine the church and deface Christianity from the inside(like all this pedophile stuff recently) at the same time trying to lead their masses on a Lucifarian agenda(like telling everyone to take their vaccines and listen to the government).

We are up to our ears in a satanic culture marching on a lucifarian path. When someone knows what to look for you will see it on every TV channel, almost all of the popular songs on the radio, everywhere you look ether has satanic symbolism or is pushing a lucifarian agenda.
 
The Judeo-Christian religions have been devoutly held by millions of believers for thousands of years. The Luciferian mindset has been around a short time, unless you are willing to take it back to the age of paganism, with a relative few followers. Again, IMHO it's a con game being perpetrated by leftists.
 
It's hard to say how long they have really been around they don't operate like normal religions, they hide in plain site and communicate with symbols for the most part.

There is also the fact there is a pentagram designed right into the streets of Washington DC and plenty of symbology just in our 1 dollar bill and much more elsewhere, it doesn't seem like a new age thing at all.
 
That's pretty much what I had in mind when I referenced paganism RK. Most would argue that Luciferianism is not a religion though.
 
"We are up to our ears in a satanic culture marching on a lucifarian path. When someone knows what to look for you will see it on every TV channel, almost all of the popular songs on the radio, everywhere you look ether has satanic symbolism or is pushing a lucifarian agenda."

This is a textbook example of what is known in psychology as confirmation bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 
"The Judeo-Christian religions have been devoutly held by millions of believers for thousands of years"

And for thousands of years millions of people were convinced that the world was flat, at the centre of the universe and that the sun revolved around us.
The length of time an idea has been around, or the number of people who believe it is not proof of it's verity.
 
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Originally Posted By: Gaznazdiak"We are up to our ears in a satanic culture marching on a lucifarian path. When someone knows what to look for you will see it on every TV channel, almost all of the popular songs on the radio, everywhere you look ether has satanic symbolism or is pushing a lucifarian agenda."

This is a textbook example of what is known in psychology as confirmation bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That would be the case if I was the one dictating what satanic symbology was, but there is in fact text books of what satanic symbology is and it is nearly everywhere main stream. And likewise with the lucifarian agenda.

I didn't make it up, it's there for everyone to see. I never saw it until I learned what it was and that led to other things that made me no longer an atheist. The whole process was about the exact opposite as confirmation bias.
 
My point wasn't that you were "making it up", I'm sure you do see things you feel are confirmation of your view that satanism is all around you. I was simply pointing out that you are subject to confirmation bias when you only see what you feel supports your view and ignore as irrelevant that which does not.
It is not meant to insult you or demean you, I have caught myself doing that same thing. It is one of the priciples we are taught to avoid during experimentation and testing. Even an eminent scientist like the late Dr Amir Aczel does it in his Time article.
You even say that you didn't see it until you learned about it and now you see it everywhere, that is the very essence of confirmation bias.

If you read the Wikipedia article about it and be totally honest with yourself you will see what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 
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