Nosler brass issue, bullet won't seat

V

varminter .223

Well-known member
Ran 100 new 22 Nosler cases and some multi time fired brass through my small base rcbs dies tonight. I also chamfered the case mouths. The used brass loaded perfect. The new stuff has so much neck tension that the bullets wont seat any deeper than 2.280 ish with the die set to seat at 2.265. The bullets start to indent and the case even started to bulge on one after I adjusted the seater plug down another .015" or so. Necks measure .250" after sizing and .252" to .2525" after seating a bullet. Could it be this brass is just that hard? I had loaded some of this brass before without sizing and most loaded fine with a few with the bullet not wanting to seat all the way. After sizing the first 4 I tried all had this issue. Any thoughts?
 
Quote:Ran 100 new 22 Nosler cases and some multi time fired brass through my small base rcbs dies tonight.

The bullets start to indent and the case even started to bulge on one after I adjusted the seater plug down another .015" or so.


Why small base die on new brass? Did you check case length after sizing? If your fired cases are shorter you could be crimping the new cases in your bullet seating die but not the fired cases, then trying to push the crimped bullet farther into the case. I suspect you may be crimping before bullet is seated on the new cases.

I'd start by checking case length, trim if too long. One way or other, I'd try backing seating die out 1/4 turn or so and readjust seater plug to desired length and see what happens.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...644#Post2967644

Quote: I had loaded some of this brass before without sizing and most loaded fine with a few with the bullet not wanting to seat all the way. After sizing the first 4 I tried all had this issue. Any thoughts?

Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: GLShooterHave you tried backing the sizer out and not touching the shoulder running the expander ball in and out?

Greg
Not sure exactly what your saying but I havent done anything other than 1 pass through the die. Best I can measure with my cheap digital calipers is .002" .0025" neck tension buy measuring bullet and case mouth id and well as case od before and after loading. Keep in mind the fired brass sized in the same batch loads perfect. Nothing changed except the brass and the issue arose.
 
Originally Posted By: hm1996Quote:Ran 100 new 22 Nosler cases and some multi time fired brass through my small base rcbs dies tonight.

The bullets start to indent and the case even started to bulge on one after I adjusted the seater plug down another .015" or so.


Why small base die on new brass? Did you check case length after sizing? If your fired cases are shorter you could be crimping the new cases in your bullet seating die but not the fired cases, then trying to push the crimped bullet farther into the case. I suspect you may be crimping before bullet is seated on the new cases.

I'd start by checking case length, trim if too long. One way or other, I'd try backing seating die out 1/4 turn or so and readjust seater plug to desired length and see what happens.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...644#Post2967644

Quote: I had loaded some of this brass before without sizing and most loaded fine with a few with the bullet not wanting to seat all the way. After sizing the first 4 I tried all had this issue. Any thoughts?

Regards,
hm


Fl size because its the die set I have other than a bushing die.
No cases arent long and die is back off if I recall a 1/2 turn from where it crimps. I check all of this before when the issue showed up on a few cases out of this bag of 250 before I started sizing before loading.
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223Originally Posted By: GLShooterHave you tried backing the sizer out and not touching the shoulder running the expander ball in and out?

Greg
Not sure exactly what your saying but I havent done anything other than 1 pass through the die. Best I can measure with my cheap digital calipers is .002" .0025" neck tension buy measuring bullet and case mouth id and well as case od before and after loading. Keep in mind the fired brass sized in the same batch loads perfect. Nothing changed except the brass and the issue arose.

Have you tried just loading the new brass and not sizing it? Just running the expander through it would probably lower neck tension but p.002 is right in the ball park.

Greg

I use mandrels to round out new necks and never size new brass. YMMV
 
Quote:The bullets start to indent and the case even started to bulge

I may be misinterpreting this^^^^??

There is obviously something different between your old and new cases. Has to be in the neck area. Find that difference and you'll find the problem.

Different case lengths (wouldn't have to be over max case length, just different) will change amount of crimp applied (the longer the case, the greater the crimp, if applied) which pointed in direction of crimp problem.

A picture might help.

Regards,
hm
 
Seater plug leaves a ring in the bullet. Seems like friction between bullet and case is so great that the rigidity of the bullet is not great enough to with stand seater plug pressure without deforming. If I adjust the seater plug down more the bullet deforms more and the shoulder to body junction buldged. No clue how to put a pic up. Brass measured the same other than some inconsistency in brass thickness of the necks on someone of the multi time fired stuff which loads perfect. Its like the brass isnt giving to allow the bullet to seat in. When I load without sizing maybe 10% had this issue. Kind of odd.
 
I just got done loading 36 rounds this evening for load development , I was checking neck concentricity before I loaded and about 1 in ever 5 or so rounds wouldn't fit on the mandrel, due to tight neck tension. This was new 22 nosler brass
 
Might be way off, but have you lubed the inside of the neck in the new brass? Definitely won't hurt anything to try.
 
Originally Posted By: SledgeMight be way off, but have you lubed the inside of the neck in the new brass? Definitely won't hurt anything to try.
No I never thought to try that.
 
Originally Posted By: bomberhatI just got done loading 36 rounds this evening for load development , I was checking neck concentricity before I loaded and about 1 in ever 5 or so rounds wouldn't fit on the mandrel, due to tight neck tension. This was new 22 nosler brass

This is why I though sizing would help.....made em all tight though.
 
Anneal the new brass and I would bet your problem goes away.

I had some new Winchester brass in 220 swift once that acted the same. Bullets seated very hard and would not seat as deep as my o.a.l needed to be. When I tried pulling some of the bullets, I pulled the jackets off the bullet or it pulled the bullet core apart. That's tight!

I annealed and everything went back to normal. I would bet your new brass either was not annealed or was not annealed correctly at the factory. I've seen it.
 
Originally Posted By: SmokelessAnneal the new brass and I would bet your problem goes away.

I had some new Winchester brass in 220 swift once that acted the same. Bullets seated very hard and would not seat as deep as my o.a.l needed to be. When I tried pulling some of the bullets, I pulled the jackets off the bullet or it pulled the bullet core apart. That's tight!

I annealed and everything went back to normal. I would bet your new brass either was not annealed or was not annealed correctly at the factory. I've seen it.
This imo what is going on. I just opened a new box of 100 of the prepped brass I loaded 7 they loaded perfectly. I then chamfered the heck out of a case mouth of one of the batch that loads hard and it loaded perfect so I thought maybe I needed to chamfer more, well I tried two more and they were still too tight. I've never a kneel before what do you guys find is the simplest way. They are all primed as well I wonder if that is a problem.
 
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Ya don't anneal with a primer in. I grabbed one the other day that got mixed in and it left a nice hole in the drywall after about 3 seconds on the torch
 
Seems like a crimp issue, I have seen .007-.008 neck tension load and shoot perfectly. I set my seating die a full turn off new cases because I don't want to run new brass through a trim stage.
 
Originally Posted By: yotehunter243Ya don't anneal with a primer in. I grabbed one the other day that got mixed in and it left a nice hole in the drywall after about 3 seconds on the torch

Lol I just did 5 with the primer in...no issues but I did put some safety glasses on. I was smart enough to feel like I was doing something wrong but dumb enough to proceed.
I just held them in my hand and twisted them back and forth 4 times each direction at an upward angle with the mouth up over the inside blue flame feather. After about three rotations I could see a slight blue tint coming on and on the forth turn that color show up a bit stronger and just about .250" ish below the shoulder. That was the point when the case head got just hot enough I have to set them on the bench.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Seater plug leaves a ring in the bullet. Seems like friction between bullet and case is so great that the rigidity of the bullet is not great enough to with stand seater plug pressure without deforming. This in and of itself is not uncommon. Seater plugs cannot fit all ogives perfectly and mark bullets they do not fit properly.

If I adjust the seater plug down more the bullet deforms more and the shoulder to body junction buldged.

No clue how to put a pic up.
Do they look like the pictures I posted here?

More details in link above.

I could sure be wrong...won't be the first time and absolutely sure it won't be the last and I'm not saying neck tension cannot be the problem but in 65 years of reloading, I have never had that problem and the issues you describe fits a crimp problem perfectly (bulged case @ shoulder to case junction, need to readjust seating plug deeper than with your old cases.

Irregardless of the fact your seating die is adjusted per mfg. instructions, and the new cases are not over max length, case length matters when crimping....(slightly) longer cases will crimp more than shorter ones.

The reason I questioned sizing new brass, especially with a small base die, is:

1) This will tend to lengthen the cases. (measure case length before and after running through sizer). I also see that you did not lube inside case necks so assume they were not lubed before running through sizer. This can exacerbate the case length problem by pulling the shoulder sufficiently to "stretch" the case even more as the dry plug is extracted.

2) The fact that you needed to reset your seater plug on the new brass, I believe, is that the case springs back where you have compressed your shoulder, making OAL a few thousandths longer.

It is easy to prove/disprove my theory. Try backing your seating die out at least one turn (don't worry about OAL on this round yet. Did it buckle shoulder? If not, re-adjust seater die by screwing it down on an empty, sized case which is trimmed to proper length until you feel it touch the die....that will be the crimp ring touching case neck, then back off (I usually back off at least 1/2 turn). Set you'r lock ring and adjust the seater plug to seat the partially seated bullet above to desired OAL. If I'm correct, that should solve the problem.



Brass measured the same other than some inconsistency in brass thickness of the necks on someone of the multi time fired stuff which loads perfect. Its like the brass isn't giving to allow the bullet to seat in. When I load without sizing maybe 10% had this issue. Kind of odd. [/color]

Regards,
hm


 
My die is backed off far enough that it isn't crimping. I never adjust my seater plug when loading this combo. I only adjusted it down to see if the bullet would move more under more load and it won't move. It either crushes the bullet or the case. I took 10 to work today and annealed them and will report back tonight with results. The bullets started hard and go hard the whole way. I think the only logical explanation is hard brass as hard as it is to believe.
Tried new prepped brass and it loads fine as well as my mulit time fired. Cases are not over 1.750"
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223Originally Posted By: yotehunter243Ya don't anneal with a primer in. I grabbed one the other day that got mixed in and it left a nice hole in the drywall after about 3 seconds on the torch

Lol I just did 5 with the primer in...no issues but I did put some safety glasses on. I was smart enough to feel like I was doing something wrong but dumb enough to proceed.
I just held them in my hand and twisted them back and forth 4 times each direction at an upward angle with the mouth up over the inside blue flame feather. After about three rotations I could see a slight blue tint coming on and on the forth turn that color show up a bit stronger and just about .250" ish below the shoulder. That was the point when the case head got just hot enough I have to set them on the bench.



I'll be curious as to your results with the finger method. Brass needs about 750* to change the molecular structure in seconds. Or about 600* for about an hour. That would anneal the whole case though, base included, and that would ruin the entire case.

To get the neck area annealed properly, we need about 800* on that neck for just a few seconds. In a dark room the neck will glow a dull maroon color and I'm sure you can not hold the base of the case at that point.

If, big if, you have heated the neck of the case holding the base with fingers to say 600* then you haven't hurt anything, but you haven't changed or helped anything either.

Proper annealing is just that. How you get there matters none.


I use a Burnsomatic torch with a fat bottle. I chuck the brass into a socket that fits the brass as close as possible. I spin that brass with a cordless drill, keeping the neck in the flame at the spear point of the blue flame. The room is dark. When the neck just starts to glow a dull maroon/red, I drop it in a bucket of CLR solution for cleaning purposes, or if that's not needed, I simply drop them on a few sheets of crumpled foil to cool.


Btw, you will want to push those primers out to get it done right.
 
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