tight chamber? help

S

Sircatsalott

New member
Hey guys
Quick question.
Im using a factory hunting 223 bolt action rifle, with lapua brass that i have fired 3 times in only this rifle, with only neck sizing between loadings. I want to start to full size just enough to get 2 or 3 thou clearance/head space after each firing to be more consistent with each reload

I have a RCBS 223 full length sizing die that when I use it, maximum sizing, the brass is still tight in my bolt action chamber. Do I understand correctly that when I remove the firing pin and place the brass in the chamber I should be able to close the bolt without friction, or with very small friction, to indicated the brass is sized to get a 2 or 3 thou head space?

What I do is raise the ram all the way up touch the die to the RCBS shell holder, advance the die a quarter turn to get cam over, size the brass, clean off the lube, try it in the chamber, and the de-pinned bolt wont close without a bit of force, like a knife through coolish butter. With a fired un-sized brass the bolt closes like a knife in cold butter. It is a better fit once i full length size it but still not a free floating bolt close.

Does this sound like I am doing something wrong, have a tight chamber, need a small base die?

The guy at the local shop said to use a small base die or to grind down the full length die because my chamber is just a tight chamber.

What should I do?

Ive emailed RCBS for advice but they are not responding cause of the holidays
Thanks for any advice
 
Sounds like minimum chamber maximum die not pushing the shoulders back. Grind 0.010 off the shell holder and adjust down. It's faster than cutting the die down. Always alter the cheapest part that's most easily replaced.

Greg
 
With a bolt gun and Lapua brass I would leave it alone. Negative headspace of a couple thousand is better than positive headspace of a couple 3 thousandths.

Creating 2-3 thousandths will end with incipient case separation. Headspace of 0 to .001 is perfect. Negative headspace of .006 is spec for all Ackley improved chambers. Negative headspace is more of a friend than not. It's called "case crush". All good.
 
Originally Posted By: GLShooterSounds like minimum chamber maximum die not pushing the shoulders back. Grind 0.010 off the shell holder and adjust down. It's faster than cutting the die down. Always alter the cheapest part that's most easily replaced.

Greg

^^^^^^This. You should not need small base dies on brass fired in that rifle.

Regards
hm
 
Just throwing something out there. But...I doubt you have a minimum spec chamber in a factory Savage barrel. You say you have 2-3 loadings on the brass. Have they been annealed? Could it possibly be the cases are hard and getting spring back?
 
Are you sure that you are not feeling the extractor snap over the rim. To do what you are talking about, you would need to remove the extractor and ejector, not just the firing pin. I'm not a Savage person, but on a Remington, you would.
 
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GLshooter's solution is what I use often. I simply hold the shell holder gently up against the side of a bench grinder wheel, and dip it in water often, I will take off .003. This should fix the problem.

ON Full length sizers, you have two dimensions you are working on:

a. base to shoulder length

b. dia at the web

Here is a problem you are dealing with, Lapua, Norma, Hertenberger, and RWS brands of brass

are made to European spec(CIP) and American brass is made to SAAMI spec.

CIP spec is larger than SAAMI spec.

So, your lapua brass is larger than American made brass.

A simple solution could be to buy American made brass which will be smaller in dimensions.

Gunsmiths run into this problem all the time with CIP brass being used in SAAMI chamber specs.

If the web is not sized down enough, you have solutions

a. small base sizer which should size the case to new brass size

b. *change to an American made brand of brass which will be smaller in the web dia

c. custom die

d. buy a small base sizer and have a machinist cut off about .250 from the bottom and use this
as a "web sizer"

e. buy another full length sizer from a different company, production dies often have
different dimensions

Greg's solution will probably fix your problem as it has for many of us.

If you find that the shoulder needs bumping after three firings, then a standard Forster neck sizer can be used to bump shoulders without all the work of full length sizing.

There is a little trial and error to determine what dimension that is causing you stiff extraction. Once you determine what dimension needs sizing down, then you can apply the appropriate "fix".

If you find that you have to bump the shoulder back .006 or more to get the web dia reduced, you are likely to find that your case life will be dramatically shortened, DRAMATICALLY.
 
+1 for ninehorses suggestion.

Also DO NOT grind the die body. If you do need adjust the shell holder to size the case more, get a sheet of medium emery cloth and lay it on a sheet of glass or metal and in circular motions work on the face of the shell holder, be sure you keep an even pressure. You can use you calipers to keep track of your progress and make sure you are keeping it level, test it frequently by sizing a piece of brass. Then take a colored permanent marker and color the whole thing up so you don't ever mix it up with. Special shell holders I keep in the empty brass box for that rifle.
 
I tried using Lapua brass in my 260 Shilen barrel and extraction was near impossible. Actually used a rubber mallet to open the bolt. It wasn't a tight neck chamber but was minimum spec chamber. I switch to Nosler brass and the problem went away.
 
Hey guys.
thanks for all the input. When I close the deprimed bolt it closes loose and floppy. I will remove the extractor/ejector and try it again. If that doesn't do it i will grind down the shell holder a thou at a time and see if that will get me to fit. the brass has not been annealed, i was planning on doing that, i will try that prior to sizing all of the brass if i can get one to fit with the above mentioned steps.
Great advice I will try them tommorow, stuck at work for a 13 hr shift today.
Thanks a ton!!!! Ill post tommorow to let you know how it went.
 
Quote:There is a little trial and error to determine what dimension that is causing you stiff extraction. Once you determine what dimension needs sizing down, then you can apply the appropriate "fix".


One way to determine where the brass is oversized is to spray a case with sight black (painting w/magic marker can also work) and carefully chamber fully & extract.

Regards,
hm
 
If he has RCBS die,why would he not just advance the die another 1/16-1/8 turn and try the fit ( since he has not mentioned the equipment for measuring the headspace). And he never said what load pressure range he is loading for, he maybe blowing the web area out with higher pressure loads.
 
it tried serious amounts of cam over with out improvement. to the point i was just flexing the press. medium range powder charge from manuals. Tonight after work ill get a few more experiments in before bed. thanks guys for the help
 
If it were me and I was using FL dies I would start with a little space between the bottom of the die and shell holder (About the thickness of a coin). Size one and it to tight or the bolt won't close at all turn the die down 1/8 at a time using the same case till you can close the bolt with just a touch of résistance. Then your headspace will be set to about .001 which should work well and you should get very good case life.
 
Have you looked at brass OAL, it might need to be trimmed? Though I think grinding the shell holder is probably going to work.

As for web size I noticed years ago that Rem or Win 22-250 brass was about .008-.010" smaller at the web than Lapua or Norma brass. I haven't compared 223 yet
 
Originally Posted By: CoyotejunkiHave you looked at brass OAL, it might need to be trimmed? Though I think grinding the shell holder is probably going to work.

As for web size I noticed years ago that Rem or Win 22-250 brass was about .008-.010" smaller at the web than Lapua or Norma brass. I haven't compared 223 yet

CIP European spec vs SAAMI Spec
 
Just curious, have you cleaned the chamber, checked for rust- crud- shellac, as this can cause the same problem you describe. Just thinking out loud.
 
Hey guys.
So I removed the ejector and the extractor. ahhhh. now I can feel the brass on the bolt with out interference. So with small cam over i am getting very small amounts of friction when closing the bolt. So I made a shim out of a pop can and it did just the trick. After a quick sizing with the shim it is a perfect fit. So rather the continuing to use a smashable shim I ground down the shell holder 2 thou and it works beautifully. All thanks to you guys and your help. Just a slightly small chamber. I have never tried any thing other than my own reloads in the chamber. No factory ammo, but I will. I feel great relief to know what was going on and to have the problem solved.
Thanks a ton to all.
 
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