Fireforming with Cream of Wheat?
- Thread starter pyscodog
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sandy hicks
New member
Nosler gives a tip on firforming for the 280ai on its web site. Just firing factory ammo leaves a big loss of cases due to split necks. FW cleared that up for me. I now use 270 brass necked to 30 and back to 280. Jam the bullet in the lands and fire form. Nosler just says to jam the bullet in the lands and use a medium power loading.
I have used the cow method with 231 and corn meal. Clean up wasn't bad. But the brass didnt have the really sharp angles on the shoulders.
I have used the cow method with 231 and corn meal. Clean up wasn't bad. But the brass didnt have the really sharp angles on the shoulders.
steve garrett
Active member
I used COW to form nearly all my 243 AI cases. just some unique powder, I actually used toilet paper packed in there to hold the COW from spilling. I just made sure my wife was gone and did it all in the garage. make sure to hold the gun downward, because you can end up with some material getting in the chamber and you have some minor case denting. I might keep a compressor with a blow gun handy if you notice this happening.
the shoulders looked pretty good not quite as ironed out as firing but enough that if you mix the cases, unfired as a formed case, and a fired as formed case you will not notice a difference in group size that I could see.
love me some ackley cases though, they look sexy, you can chuck the case trimmer, because the case shortens a tad on forming then doesn't seem to grow, at least the way I reload them with bushing dies. If I am doing a custom bolt gun, as opposed to an AR that flings brass all over the place, I want an ackley, really might as well. Take an evening turning the necks, and fire forming cases and you should have enough cases to put some serious wear on the barrel. no more case lube and no more case prep pretty much, IE the DAA way.
the shoulders looked pretty good not quite as ironed out as firing but enough that if you mix the cases, unfired as a formed case, and a fired as formed case you will not notice a difference in group size that I could see.
love me some ackley cases though, they look sexy, you can chuck the case trimmer, because the case shortens a tad on forming then doesn't seem to grow, at least the way I reload them with bushing dies. If I am doing a custom bolt gun, as opposed to an AR that flings brass all over the place, I want an ackley, really might as well. Take an evening turning the necks, and fire forming cases and you should have enough cases to put some serious wear on the barrel. no more case lube and no more case prep pretty much, IE the DAA way.
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksJam the bullet in the lands and fire form. Nosler just says to jam the bullet in the lands and use a medium power loading.
An AI chamber done by someone who knows how to do them will not need the bullet jammed. A lot of them are done wrong though. A lot of them.
The reason for it is to hold headspace. But you shouldn't have headspace in an AI chamber done the way Ackley designed them to be done.
Worse, I have experienced and heard about many, many instances of the jammed bullet not holding headspace against the firing pin strike. Case probably looks fine after that firing but it's got the start of head separation.
I've had better luck using lube. Hard on parts. But more reliable and no starting of separation.
False shoulder more better for sure. But a huge PITA that should not ever be needed for an AI unless it was done by a pipe fitter and not a 'smith. Lot's of pipe fitters out there operating as 'smiths though.
I had two AI's done by one of the very famous accuracy, benchrest 'smiths. They were both done wrong. Ended up using lube for fireforming them. The guy knows PPC's and world record setting accuracy and such. But he don't know AI's and he don't know hunting rifle function. Haven't used him for a long time...
- DAA
An AI chamber done by someone who knows how to do them will not need the bullet jammed. A lot of them are done wrong though. A lot of them.
The reason for it is to hold headspace. But you shouldn't have headspace in an AI chamber done the way Ackley designed them to be done.
Worse, I have experienced and heard about many, many instances of the jammed bullet not holding headspace against the firing pin strike. Case probably looks fine after that firing but it's got the start of head separation.
I've had better luck using lube. Hard on parts. But more reliable and no starting of separation.
False shoulder more better for sure. But a huge PITA that should not ever be needed for an AI unless it was done by a pipe fitter and not a 'smith. Lot's of pipe fitters out there operating as 'smiths though.
I had two AI's done by one of the very famous accuracy, benchrest 'smiths. They were both done wrong. Ended up using lube for fireforming them. The guy knows PPC's and world record setting accuracy and such. But he don't know AI's and he don't know hunting rifle function. Haven't used him for a long time...
- DAA
sandy hicks
New member
Mine was done by Kimber and it came with a learning curve. Firing factory ammo nets a 50percent loss of brass in my rifle. After talking with FW, I finally went to the old school method of a false shoulder.
For the sake of good converation, I have sepeeated numerous 35 rem cases in a contender. The generous chamber and full length sizing takes a toll on the brass. I only fire hunting brass 3 times for reliability.
In theory, by using brass fire formed to that chamber and neck sizing the brass, wouldnt case sepeeation be extremely rare.
For the sake of good converation, I have sepeeated numerous 35 rem cases in a contender. The generous chamber and full length sizing takes a toll on the brass. I only fire hunting brass 3 times for reliability.
In theory, by using brass fire formed to that chamber and neck sizing the brass, wouldnt case sepeeation be extremely rare.
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Originally Posted By: sandy hicks
In theory, by using brass fire formed to that chamber and neck sizing the brass, wouldnt case sepeeation be extremely rare.
Sometimes. But when they get stretched enough on the first firing, even just neck sizing after that you can get the rings on the second or third go. Brass is flowing with full house loads. Even if the case isn't visibly growing, brass IS flowing. It shows in several ways. Like when I used to bother uniforming PP's. Case ain't got any longer but I'm getting fresh chips out of the PP every firing. Hmmmm.... And stuff like that.
I've never let one go long enough to actually separate though. I see the rings, I check 'em, I find the notch, they get tossed. And I hate tossing brass. Usually have enough work into them that I almost know each one by name, lol!
Got the rings using bullet jam on one of the AI's mentioned above. So used lube. Worked much better as far as brass life, but hard on the rifle.
Have never gone so far as to false shoulder just to form an AI. I'd almost just get the chamber re-done if I could, at that point. The 'smith would get an earful.
Sure is a lot nicer all around when the rifle is just built right in the first place. But with AI's, it's almost mind boggling how many 'smiths just don't get it.
Pays your money and takes your chances.
- DAA
In theory, by using brass fire formed to that chamber and neck sizing the brass, wouldnt case sepeeation be extremely rare.
Sometimes. But when they get stretched enough on the first firing, even just neck sizing after that you can get the rings on the second or third go. Brass is flowing with full house loads. Even if the case isn't visibly growing, brass IS flowing. It shows in several ways. Like when I used to bother uniforming PP's. Case ain't got any longer but I'm getting fresh chips out of the PP every firing. Hmmmm.... And stuff like that.
I've never let one go long enough to actually separate though. I see the rings, I check 'em, I find the notch, they get tossed. And I hate tossing brass. Usually have enough work into them that I almost know each one by name, lol!
Got the rings using bullet jam on one of the AI's mentioned above. So used lube. Worked much better as far as brass life, but hard on the rifle.
Have never gone so far as to false shoulder just to form an AI. I'd almost just get the chamber re-done if I could, at that point. The 'smith would get an earful.
Sure is a lot nicer all around when the rifle is just built right in the first place. But with AI's, it's almost mind boggling how many 'smiths just don't get it.
Pays your money and takes your chances.
- DAA
Dave,
I had 2 AI’s (243 and 223) done by Greg Young at Southern Precision Rifles-shortly after I had a partial case head separation on a pipe fitter job.
Greg did a “.004 crush fit” on new Lapua brass and gave me info on forming loads and AI loads for both guns.
The brass formed with full shoulders on the first firing and the forming loads were almost as accurate as the AI loads.
I had 2 AI’s (243 and 223) done by Greg Young at Southern Precision Rifles-shortly after I had a partial case head separation on a pipe fitter job.
Greg did a “.004 crush fit” on new Lapua brass and gave me info on forming loads and AI loads for both guns.
The brass formed with full shoulders on the first firing and the forming loads were almost as accurate as the AI loads.
For sure, some of them DO get it. It has always surprised me how many of the "big names", don't, though.
Greg Tannel has done all my rifle work for about 15 years now. He gets it ALL
.
Well, no, now that I think about it, I had LRI do a small job for me year before last and had a local guy, Cody Farr, thread a bunch of barrels for me last year. Picky as I am, that barrel threading is right there with chambering, as far as how precise I want it. First local guy that was recommended to me, after about the fourth question I asked him about how he dials in and accounts for crooked bores (.17's are almost all crooked...), he just told me I probably ought to find someone else to thread my barrels
. Happy with Cody's work though. Will use him again I'm sure.
But your guy, Greg T., LRI, Cody, Kevin Weaver, plenty of others, they are out there. It sure behooves the beginning rifle addict to try and learn about this stuff and do the homework and ask the questions and not take any 'smiths word for it, even really famous big name 'smiths.
- DAA
Greg Tannel has done all my rifle work for about 15 years now. He gets it ALL
Well, no, now that I think about it, I had LRI do a small job for me year before last and had a local guy, Cody Farr, thread a bunch of barrels for me last year. Picky as I am, that barrel threading is right there with chambering, as far as how precise I want it. First local guy that was recommended to me, after about the fourth question I asked him about how he dials in and accounts for crooked bores (.17's are almost all crooked...), he just told me I probably ought to find someone else to thread my barrels
But your guy, Greg T., LRI, Cody, Kevin Weaver, plenty of others, they are out there. It sure behooves the beginning rifle addict to try and learn about this stuff and do the homework and ask the questions and not take any 'smiths word for it, even really famous big name 'smiths.
- DAA
I've had a couple AI cartridges in the past. I've formed brass both ways, by the crush fit method and by making a false shoulder. I prefer the false shoulder. With the crush fit method, I was doing a 6.5/06 AI. It didn't take long to realize the variances in case thickness. Some the bolt would close with a feel, some the bolt would drop, some I had to force it down. If you neck the brass up, then size down to fit, they all are the same. And you don't have to get all up in the air over a chamber made.004" deep.
I always chambered a fire forming barrel using a scrap/discarded barrel. I have used COW and pistol powder with good success.
I always chambered a fire forming barrel using a scrap/discarded barrel. I have used COW and pistol powder with good success.
I've had a bunch of AI's. To me, the whole point is how simple and easy they "should be". Load virgin case with no die forming operations, kill something with it, extract fully formed and ready to go AI case. No muss, no fuss.
They haven't all gone like that. But that was how I wanted and expected them to go.
Doing a false shoulder to make either brass with lousy consistency or a too sloppy chamber work just ain't part of the program I'm signing up for when I choose an AI.
- DAA
They haven't all gone like that. But that was how I wanted and expected them to go.
Doing a false shoulder to make either brass with lousy consistency or a too sloppy chamber work just ain't part of the program I'm signing up for when I choose an AI.
- DAA
Hey DA. Sloppy chamber? How do you know, and why make a statement you can't prove? Credibility goes out the window.
The situation I talked about was using Laura 30/06 brass. So you say Lapua is lousy? Really? Credibility goes out the window.
False shoulder is a very tried and true method of fire forming brass, much more consistent than seating a bullet long.
I have chambered bench rest barrels for over 20 years. You? You have a clue how to check a chamber? No you don't.
Benchrest was founded on those who made wildcats by fire forming brass far more radically than a simple Ackley.
The situation I talked about was using Laura 30/06 brass. So you say Lapua is lousy? Really? Credibility goes out the window.
False shoulder is a very tried and true method of fire forming brass, much more consistent than seating a bullet long.
I have chambered bench rest barrels for over 20 years. You? You have a clue how to check a chamber? No you don't.
Benchrest was founded on those who made wildcats by fire forming brass far more radically than a simple Ackley.
What makes you think I was talking about your chamber? I wasn't.
Inconsistent brass is what it is no matter what headstamp is on it. Lapua us not immune, obviously. Deal with what you got to deal with however satisfies you.
False shouldering to fireform an AI is defeating at least part of the purpose of an AI though, "for me". Can't disagree with the utility of it if there is headspace but it's more hassle than I want for an AI.
None of that was aimed at you.
I guess I can see how it could be taken that way though. Not my intent.
I occasionally need a reminder to just stay out of this stuff.
- DAA
Inconsistent brass is what it is no matter what headstamp is on it. Lapua us not immune, obviously. Deal with what you got to deal with however satisfies you.
False shouldering to fireform an AI is defeating at least part of the purpose of an AI though, "for me". Can't disagree with the utility of it if there is headspace but it's more hassle than I want for an AI.
None of that was aimed at you.
I guess I can see how it could be taken that way though. Not my intent.
I occasionally need a reminder to just stay out of this stuff.
- DAA
reddog964
New member
Originally Posted By: pyscodog9 grains of 231 and cream of wheat makes a very nice AI case. A little time consuming making the loads but I'm satisfied with the results.
Pretty Slick and not much of a mess
Fire forming with loaded rounds ain't a bad way to go either if you don't shoot a lot but every bullet down the bore counts as 1 less...
Pretty Slick and not much of a mess
Fire forming with loaded rounds ain't a bad way to go either if you don't shoot a lot but every bullet down the bore counts as 1 less...
reddog964
New member
Originally Posted By: pyscodogI made 50 cases today. All 50 look real nice and the clean up wasn't near as bad as I figured. Few wet patchs and a few brush strokes and it was done. Now to get serious.
Things do clean up very nicely and its pretty simple! and IMO your to the point were you can do your load work and not have to adjust much unlike fire forming IME anyways... Beside it being cheaper and less rounds down the tube.
Things do clean up very nicely and its pretty simple! and IMO your to the point were you can do your load work and not have to adjust much unlike fire forming IME anyways... Beside it being cheaper and less rounds down the tube.
