223 wont go bang

NorTex250

New member
I've run into a batch of 223 I reloaded that won't fire in my AR. Factory ammo shots fine.

There is no mark on the primer from the firing pin. I swaged the primer pockets so I checked primer depth and it is .005-.006 below the case head - factory ammo I have is the same.

I used a bullet comparator that fit the middle of the shoulder and my brass is .005 to .015 longer than the factory ammo. So I should have less headspace with my reloads.

Anyone have any ideas?

I've got about 1500 rounds loaded like this...
 
You probably have to tall a shoulder. What does a fired case measured look like. Your hand loads should be 0.004 to 0.005 shorter than the fired cases.

Greg
 
sounds like your sizing die wasnt setup correctly when you resized them.


you'll have to pull the bullets and then resize the brass again - without your primer pin in your sizing die - to bump the shoulder back.

Get a collet puller for your press! you dont want to bang that many out with a hammer!

make sure you use a lube thats powder/primer safe like hornady one shot.

trim/chamfer/deburr.

then you'll just used them like primed brass - ready for powder and primer.
 
Actually using a f/l bushing die without a bushing can be used to move the shoulders. It must be a bushing style not a standard type. A true shoulder bump die that does not touch the neck can also be used.

Greg
 
I appreciate the input, I'm sure that's the problem.

I'm either going to find a way to push the shoulders back with the bullets in or fibs a little single shot that will shoot them how they are.

No way I'm pulling that many bullets
 
Originally Posted By: NorTex250I appreciate the input, I'm sure that's the problem.

I'm either going to find a way to push the shoulders back with the bullets in or fibs a little single shot that will shoot them how they are.

No way I'm pulling that many bullets

They can't be fired single shot. I just explained that you need a full length bushing die and use it without the bushings. This will not touch the loaded necks with the bullet in place. Pick up a REDDING TYPE S FULL LENGTH 223 die from Midway or off AMAZON. Make sure it's a bushing type as some guys get confused with the plethora of choices.

It is MANDATORY that you lube the cases when you do this. No need to ask how I know and you don't want to have to fix that!

PM me if you need assistance.

Greg
 
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before we assume that they're safe to just bump the shoulder as loaded ammo...

can we get some load information first?

powder (and charge weight), bullet, OAL, primer, brass, etc. please provide as much information as you can - the more info we have, the better the result.

as my old boss used to say over and over - let the data drive the decision.




as someone who's never had to do this, there are a couple concerns that come to mind for me

1) case fill - if these are already close to max with the shoulder where they are, will they still be a charge inside the known safe loads for your rifle with a properly sized case? i'd like to assume that if someone loaded up 1500 rounds it was an an otherwise tested/known recipe.... but we all know what they say about that word...

2) OAL - again, looking at case fill, if these bullets are seated to a "normal" OAL - lets say 2.250"(just to put a number on it for math reasons) - when you bump the shoulder back, how will that effect the actual seating depth of the load? i would think that the OP will end up with ammo of an OAL varying from 2.245" to 2.235" if we're moving the shoulder somewhere from 0.005 to 0.015 back from its current position without adjusting where the bullet sits in the case.

that aslo kind of goes back to #1 above and how bumping the shoulder will effect the case fill %.

additionally with the listed shoulder variance at +0.005 to +0.015 how consistent will the finished product's OAL affect the finished product? if they are safe, how will this affect the accuracy of the loads? will they need to be sorted?


3) whats the source of the brass that the shoulder has a 0.005-0.015 variance on the headspace gauge? was this MG fired brass? random range pickup? or from the OP's gun. if its one of the first two (MG or random range brass) has the body been properly sized if the die wasnt moving the shoulders during resizing? begs to wonder if there are there more than one reason this brass wont properly chamber in his firearm?



i'm not trying to be snotty about this - or even suggesting that the process of just a shoulder bump as suggested wont be safe - i'm trying to educate myself as well as bringing to light what may be truly legit safety concerns when it comes to modifying an already loaded round from the given condition its currently in.


i feel that without more information from the OP - i think its hasty at this time to just jump to a "this'll fix it" solution that doesnt involve pulling everything and starting over.

 
i would also strongly suggest to the OP that he acquire an ammunition gauge for checking work in the future - especially when first setting up dies, or resetting dies if not using a quick change bushing system on your press.

there are several out there, but i'm personally a fan of the slotted Sheridan gauges.

SG223REM.jpg


http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm

this is a loaded ammo gauge, but can also be used to check brass during the resizing stage and is not simply a headspace gauge like the wilson gauges are. its essentially a chamber cut to SAAMI minimum chamber spec. so it'll give you not only the ability to check headspace, but also body diameter, neck diameter and loaded rounds. If it'll pass a sheridan gauge, it'll work in any SAAMI spec chamber. however as such it will only work with resized brass - especailly if you have a chamber thats closer to max chamber specs.

additionally being a cutaway gauge, you can often see where the interference is happening in your incorrect ammo or brass and let you know where you need to start measuring.


a simple tool like this as part of your reloading kit would have alerted you well before you got to the point of finding out that your now 1500 rounds of loaded ammo didnt go bang that you had a problem and you could have corrected it in the early stages.


i know at this point its like suggesting locking the barn door after the cows escaped, but if you can prevent even one future event like this, it will have more than paid for itself.

hth
 
Excessive headspace can cause failure to fire as well. Does the gun go to battery? Alot of times oversized headspace wont allow the gun to fire.
 
A few valid questions there for cogitation.

Assuming this isn't a MAX MAX load it will make no difference. Take out a box of FACTORY non-match 223ammo and measure shoulder height and COL. Come back when you get you get your eyebrows down from a normal height. They are all over the place. I did and was shocked after it. Even some match FGGM stuff was a huge variation in COL. 1500 of anything loaded had better be a well thought out load but we don't know until we get specifics on these.

Seating depth WILL NOT be affect. COL will be but not the bullet seating depth. A 0.010 shoulder push back, taken as an average, will show zero in our performance in this platform. You will see as much as 5% variation in case capacity just by using one brand of brass over another and at times even in the same lot of normal run brass you might see that in the same lot.

Factory loads are routinely 0.002 to 0.008 below SAAMI minimum do they fit every chamber out there. Then the chambers are up to 0.008 or so over SAAMI minimum. As an current example the 22 Nosler brass I've been shooting in SAAMI chambers grows 0.008-0.009 on the first firing. The chances of getting that small back to manufactured length on this scenario is very small. He has the tools to measure, apparently, he just needs to put them to use.

Safe? None of this is safe by definition without common sense and some planning. Look at the huge variation in powder charges in the books. We just beat a dead horse on an H335 and 55 grain load the other day at 25.0 yet we can find it up to 27.5+ in some books as a safe load. Chamber choice, crimp , components and book testing cause the huge wide swath of "safe" by definition.

I admire the OP for bringing the issue here. I've spent more than an hour or two with a bullet puller before I knew about all these other tools. Advice here is worth what is paid for it. Members can take away or leave what they want. We all share anecdotal experience in good faith but there are no guarantees here.

The Internet makes instant experts right up until guys with literally decades of experience point out the fallacy of many theories. Not that they know it all or might not be wrong but do you bet on a rookie at the PGA or a seasoned veteran at the US Open? There are one trick ponies on every board and lots of keyboard kowboys and it behooves the participants to pull there own reference material and decide if something is reasonable and feasible.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: NorTex250I appreciate the input, I'm sure that's the problem.

I'm either going to find a way to push the shoulders back with the bullets in or fibs a little single shot that will shoot them how they are.

No way I'm pulling that many bullets

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lol.gif


might be wrong, but i think he meant to type find instead of fibs. think he is talking about finding a single shot rifle to shoot them in. not the ar15 he wanted to shoot them in.

but carry on.
 
Shooting machine gun brass which was fired in a SAW(Squad automatic weapon) is problematic to say the least, you size it down, it expands back out, endless cycle. Sizing with a small base die in the first place will help out, but it is still a hope and prayer. Checking your loaded ammo by cycling it through a bolt gun is a good way to go if you do not have a Dillon case gauge.

If you ever stick a round in an AR while you are hunting, this will usually happen as you release the bolt to pick up a round out of the magazine.

I still have memories of my brother beating the bolt carrier on the top of a fence post trying to get a stuck round out of the chamber, which did not work. Then he took the ball hitch out of the receiver hitch on the truck, removed the scope, then beat the heck out of the bolt carrier on the receiver hitch! He broke the handle. Lucky, I brought a back up gun so he could hunt, but he was so upset, he could not hit a coyote. A coyote darn near ran over him 30 minutes after the anger fit on the AR, he shot at it 3 times and missed...this really made him even more angry!

I cherish unfired Lake city brass.
 
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thanks for that greg. you've answered most of what i was looking for regarding the process of bumping back in an instance like this.

one thing i think i may have worded poorly however i'd like to clarify where my concern fell.

Originally Posted By: GLShooter
Seating depth WILL NOT be affect. COL will be but not the bullet seating depth. A 0.010 shoulder push back, taken as an average, will show zero in our performance in this platform. You will see as much as 5% variation in case capacity just by using one brand of brass over another and at times even in the same lot of normal run brass you might see that in the same lot.



while i understand that bumping the shoulder will not change where in the neck the bullet is seated, i was referring to in relation to a round loaded in brass of the correct dimensions.

ie: if the shoulder is 0.010 long (average) to begin with, and the round is loaded to 2.060 COAL, when you move the shoulder back would that not be the same as loading the same bullet into a normal case to 2.050 COAL? therefor to my thinking that round would have a relative 0.010 average difference in seating depth even though the process we're using to correct the shoulder doesnt actual alter the current placement of said bullet at all.


i was also wondering while driving around yesterday afternoon that there may be a trim length issue with this brass once it gets the shoulder bump applied - that it would end up short by whatever the shoulder bump is? i dont think that it'll end up as unsafe as SAAMI spec is of trim length is usually max length -0.020 and for most stuff recommended trim length is max - 0.010

so even on the worst side of things the brass will only be under min spec by a couple thousandths... which should work itself out for the most part after firing and the following FL resizing.

just something to consider with this brass going forward, especailly if the OP is applying any kind of crimp with their loads.

if there's gotta be an upside - i would speculate these cases shouldn't need to be trimmed for a firing or two.
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The bump will alter COL the same amount as the bump. In performance down range the difference will be negligible. Measure a box of bullets, particularly HP's, and you will see a variation of up to 0.010in that box. Once again this falls well into the random tolerances of our components. That is why when open a new box of bullets, different lot, we make sure that there is no ogive variation, that we seat from for accuracy, that will cause us to load ammo that is too long when we are on the ragged edge of maximum magazine length to start with.

Assuming a nominal INTERNAL diameter of 0.320, wall thickness 0.17, with a shoulder bump pf 0.010 you would see a loss in case volume of appropriately 0.0008042 cubic inches or 0.1379 CC's. A standard 223 holds about 1.87 CC of H20. The lose in volume would there fore equate to 0.07374%.
Being less than 1% this would mean that plus or minus on a 0.1 grain powder charge which most of will accept on basic ammunition you would not see any difference in random shot pressures or speed of concern. Once again random case variation will far exceed the bump factor.

The case growth for trimming will not be any more or less by shortening. Case growth is brass migration and shortening these up with a shoulder bump will do nothing. Trimming prior to the firing more than is normal will cut down on trim frequency, think X Die, but in this scenario no trimming was done.

Greg
 
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