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#3094303 - 09/30/17 05:25 PM 223 reduced loads
Rangerat Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Southwest
OK. So I know this topic has been beaten to death but I had a sudden urge to dust off the old Savage and play around with some light loads. Years ago I got hold of a Handloader (157) article called "Petite Loads For Squirrels" by Glenn Stewart and at the time I had a great little TC Contender custom carbine barrel. It was hard to make that thing shoot a BIGGER group than 1" @100yds. So I made bunches of loads and seemed to find that my 223 loved H4198. With anything from 40-55gr VMaxes and 14ish to 20ish grains of H4198 it semed to hold pretty near 3/4" at 100 yds. I had never experienced such consistency before or since.
In years since I've messed around with 800X, 2400, Blue Dot, I think maybe even Bullseye for "slow" loads. I have ben warned not to reduce loads of slow rifle powders and that seems to be consistent regardless of who you're speaking to. I assumed that H4198 worked well becasue it is relatively fast for a rifle powder.
So now I have a Savage with a 1 in 9" barrel and I'm thinking of working out some similar loads but I happen to have a big jug of AA2200 (DATA POWDER). I've gotten down to 14gr with some 75gr AMaxes and it's grouping pretty well at 50 yards. I haven't chronoed them but I should be getting down around 2000 fps, and it's getting quiet. Big question: Am I going to blow my own face off?

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#3094304 - 09/30/17 05:27 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
Rangerat Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Southwest
Oh yeah, and I always double and triple check for double charges and when I'm experimenting I always check for squibbs.

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#3094812 - 10/03/17 05:35 AM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
chris112 Offline
Die Hard Member II

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 1478
Loc: SD
Accurate has some reduced loads (for some cartridges) on their web site. Otherwise go to 24 hour campfire and get in touch with a fellow uses the name Seafire; he's worked with reduced loads with Blue Dot. Good luck and be careful.

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#3094896 - 10/03/17 01:46 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
Lefty SRH Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2024
Loc: North AL
Have you tried Trail Boss. Haha, its definitely a light load.
_________________________
Longest kill shot to date, 620yds with a custom built 22-243 Win.

"In GOD We Trust"

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#3094907 - 10/03/17 02:27 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Lefty SRH]
Bob_Atl Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/09/15
Posts: 2068
Loc: in the field, or not..
Originally Posted By: Lefty SRH
Have you tried Trail Boss. Haha, its definitely a light load.

Yah, and you can't over-fill with trail boss (TB).
What I've found with TB in general, is it is just too soft for supersonic FPS.
But great for subsonic loads.
_________________________
.... rule #9 ....

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#3095296 - 10/05/17 01:47 AM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Bob_Atl]
Rangerat Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Southwest
Sorry, got a little busy there, but I managed to find a few loads I had already made up (3 years ago?). 75gr AMAX on 14gr 2200 and 55gr VMAX on 18gr 2200. So I managed to sneak out and burn a few.
The 75s seem to stabilize ok. Not bad at 50 yds but fall apart by 100. Maybe 3Ē groups or so. The 55gr made a fuzzy bug hole at 50, and under .5Ē at 100 yds. I was kind of surprised because the 55 grainers are pulled bullets, moly coated. Itís not exactly quiet but definitely low intensity. I need to try 200 yards to see how far they drop and maybe chrono them but I think I can live with it.
I wish there was more info on what makes reduced loads so unpredictable. I havenít had any problems but I am very careful when experimenting. I just donít like thinking Iím immune to screwing up and these are uncharted waters. Thanks for the input.

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#3095693 - 10/06/17 09:51 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
Ohiochuck Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Ohio
Reduced loads for .223 listed here- might be worth a try.
Jim
http://www.accuratereloading.com/223rem.html

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#3097231 - 10/14/17 09:59 AM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
ilmo Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 391
Loc: illinois/missouri
try 60% to 80% of a published load with h4895........
Try Accurate 5744........ it shoots well with reduced loads.... I don't have time right now to give you info.... but search for 5744 loads.......

also a full case of a slow powder like 4831 or aa3100 or even slower will give reduced velocities..... but not necessarily the recoil reduction you might expect... if that matters...... a lot less than a full case of a slow for caliber powder can be dangerous...... a full case of slow powder is very safe..

for Blue dot loading a 223.... do NOT!! load over 50% of case capacity.. because this is a fast for caliber powder.... a full case of blue dot in a 223(222,22-250) is very dangerous.... 20% to 40% of a full case of blue dot has been used to create enjoyable shooting rounds for some people....

An intriguing thing about using blue dot is the ability to get loads using a small about of powder and not heat the barrel as quickly... blue dot loads have also shown good accuracy at lower velocities than one normally thinks of for a 223...

I enjoy reduced power loads for some applications.. I enjoy making loads that do not exactly duplicate factory loads..... I have an 8mm mauser and a 760 rem in 308 that is use for "big bore plinkers" both have peep sights... I have used 4895 and 5744 for both of them with success.... and I just use them to plink at the same things i do with a 22lr .. sometimes it just suits my mood..... the 760 is not fun to shoot with full power loads.... with my reduced load using 4895.. it is a hoot to shoot


also
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/bee.php



http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=63662

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2901091





Edited by ilmo (10/16/17 10:22 AM)

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#3097274 - 10/14/17 01:53 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
Lefty SRH Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2024
Loc: North AL
Nice link ilmo, thanks for the info.
_________________________
Longest kill shot to date, 620yds with a custom built 22-243 Win.

"In GOD We Trust"

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#3097295 - 10/14/17 04:21 PM Re: 223 reduced loads [Re: Rangerat]
Mort98 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/21/14
Posts: 117
Loc: IN
Originally Posted By: Rangerat
Sorry, got a little busy there, but I managed to find a few loads I had already made up (3 years ago?). 75gr AMAX on 14gr 2200 and 55gr VMAX on 18gr 2200. So I managed to sneak out and burn a few.
The 75s seem to stabilize ok. Not bad at 50 yds but fall apart by 100. Maybe 3Ē groups or so. The 55gr made a fuzzy bug hole at 50, and under .5Ē at 100 yds. I was kind of surprised because the 55 grainers are pulled bullets, moly coated. Itís not exactly quiet but definitely low intensity. I need to try 200 yards to see how far they drop and maybe chrono them but I think I can live with it.
I wish there was more info on what makes reduced loads so unpredictable. I havenít had any problems but I am very careful when experimenting. I just donít like thinking Iím immune to screwing up and these are uncharted waters. Thanks for the input.


I am a bit interested in reduced loads myself. I have some 2200 powder. Did you start with book minimum loads and work down to 18 grains with the 55gr bullets? I too do not want to blow myself or equipment up!

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#3097473 - 10/15/17 01:35 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH 5744 [Re: ilmo]
ilmo Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 391
Loc: illinois/missouri

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#3097485 - 10/15/17 02:28 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: ilmo]
ilmo Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 391
Loc: illinois/missouri

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#3097653 - 10/16/17 04:20 AM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: ilmo]
Mort98 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/21/14
Posts: 117
Loc: IN
ilmo, thanks for the links!!! Interesting stuff.

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#3097916 - 10/17/17 01:44 AM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
Bear Offline
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2058
Loc: Colorado USA
Speer reloading #14 has reduced loads for the 223.
_________________________
When you are dead you don't know you are dead. It is difficult only for others. It is the same when you are Stupid. I really LOVE it when I wake up and find out Obama isn't still president!!

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#3097929 - 10/17/17 06:14 AM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
Mike B Online
Die Hard Member III

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 2626
Loc: central PA
All the old Speer manuals had reduced load data for a bunch of the bottle-necked cartridges. You can find em cheap on ebay and such if you want. Personally, I stick to published data in the reloading manuals, not internet advise, although many times they align. Trail Boss will get you 22LR-22WMR performance in a 222/223. H4895 and AA 5744 will get you the next step higher (22 Hornet and more). 700X and 800X were listed in the Speer manuals decades ago also. All with published data. I've never seen the Blue Dot loads pressure tested or recommended by Alliant, so I'll refrain, thanx. No need when there's tested data on other powders to go to. Plenty of success stories on these powders alone.
_________________________
Mike B

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#3098242 - 10/18/17 06:50 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Mike B]
Mort98 Offline
Seasoned Member

Registered: 09/21/14
Posts: 117
Loc: IN
After the bit of research on reduced 223 loads I think if I give them a try I will just stick to Trail Boss. Just seems to be the safe road to travel here.

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#3215643 - 10/20/19 04:31 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
Rangerat Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/28/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Southwest
Sorry to abandon this thread but I'm getting that itch again. So I don't mean to recommend the loads I've mentioned, I'm not particularly quick to try loads I find on line either. If you care to use my data to help develop your own you do so at your own risk. I have some level of confidence with my experiments but I also take responsibility for my own actions, caution is the better part of valor. If you have even the slightest inkling that you would be better served sticking to published data, I highly recommend listening to your gut. I haven't managed to blow my own face off, yet.

That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. For those interested, I did experiment down from an already moderate load of AA2200 of 19.5gr under a 55gr VMAX. I surmised by existing published load data that the 2200 is a bit slower than 2230, somewhere around the rate of 2015BR, H322, H4198. As previously stated, I experimented extensively with reduced H4198 loads years ago base on that old article "Petite Loads for Squirrels" in Handloader 157 (May-June 1992) with excellent results. I was getting superior accuracy at 22 WMR velocities with slightly heavier bullets. I decided it was worth a try and worked down from 19.5gr to 18.0gr in .5gr increments, testing for accuracy, measuring my brass, listening for any evidence of squibbs, and checking barrel/bore regularly. I can't exactly remember why I stopped at 18.0gr but I know they were getting nice and quiet and accuracy was measurably better at 18.0 than at 19.5, all this in my little Savage.
The 75gr VMAX experiment is to hopefully have a quiet(ish) load with better wind bucking and energy retention down range. Hoping to do some coyote hunting without having to drive quite so far out.

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#3215645 - 10/20/19 05:02 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
IdahoRoger Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 03/04/18
Posts: 52
Loc: Idaho
I remember using 19 grains of 4198 in a .22-250 and had very good accuracy. Blue dot is a much hotter powder, so smaller loads naturally.
If you know what you are doing there is nothing wrong with loading this way.

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#3217595 - 11/08/19 10:44 AM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
Frankm Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 10
Loc: Idaho
Ditto 12-13 grs of Blue Dot with 40-55 gr bullets. Shoot sub MOA in capable rifles and usually to same POI as full power / velocity loads. Case fill will be over 50% so double charges shouldn't occur if you pay attention.

Have shot thousands of them, low heat in barrel too!!

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#3217597 - 11/08/19 11:12 AM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Frankm]
Rustydust Online
PM senior

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 5939
Loc: Southwest Idaho
Originally Posted By: Frankm
Ditto 12-13 grs of Blue Dot with 40-55 gr bullets. Shoot sub MOA in capable rifles.
Have shot thousands of them, low heat in barrel too!!


I was just at the range Sunday and tried 13 grains of BD in my .223 AI with the 40 grain Vmax. I did not have that many loaded up but shot four consecutive three shot groups about 3/8" at 100 yards then shot two ragged hole five shot groups. Low noise, low pressure, accurate and will flip a ground squirrel in orbit. Something not to like about that?
_________________________
I once asked a liberal "What is it with you people? Is it ignorance or apathy?'
He said, "Well, I don't know and I don't care.'"


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#3217601 - 11/08/19 01:35 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4790
Loc: NM
I've been using 800x from the Calhoun sight in my 222 Rem, 223, 5.6x50R Mag and 22-204 for small game loads and finishers. I also run 800x in the 25-204 with cast bullets. The Calhoun info has been around for a very long time, they started with 800x and then went to BlueDot, I never made the transition as 800x worked just fine for me.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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#3217611 - 11/08/19 03:05 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: AWS]
IdahoRoger Offline
Predator Master

Registered: 03/04/18
Posts: 52
Loc: Idaho
I loaded some Speer 100 grain half-jacket varmint bullets over 8 grains of Unique for my .30-30 and have a really nice accurate plinking round. I could go up to 10 grains but don't feel the need. This combo would work for .308 and .30-06.

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#3217792 - 11/10/19 12:38 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
Frankm Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 10
Loc: Idaho
AWS, you re exactly right... 800X works well also just at a slightly lighter charge. I like BD as it meters better than 800X but both do a good job!

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#3217794 - 11/10/19 01:11 PM Re: 223 reduced loads WITH blue dot [Re: Rangerat]
AWS Offline
Die Hard Member with a vengeance

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 4790
Loc: NM
I used to shoot 700x in my 300 Sav with 170gr cast bullets, it was extremely accurate and did kill many fox with that rig when they worth $100/ea with little pelt damage.
_________________________
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska.

Heaven has rules and walls, He-l has open borders

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