New reloaded needing advice

viper

viper

Active member
I am pretty new to reloading and I am working up some .223 Remington for a bolt action rifle 1-7 twist. I am using Sierra 69 gr match kings with Varget. I started running 5 rounds at a time and moving up .03 at a time from 19.9 to 26.4
My last few loads were getting up to around a 1/16" from the case top. " is this ok?"
I plan to go to the range and shot groups starting low to high and look for pressure sign.
Just did not know if the powder should be that high in the case? I confirmed the load in 2 books and online.
 
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Yes in most cases it is OK. You don't want to compress the powder when seating the bullet to where it is hard to to seat but some compression is ok..

Many loads will fill the case with stick powders being the worst offenders. They make long drop tubes for a powder funnel that you pour the powder slowly into the funnel and the powder settles a lot giving more room. You can tap the side of the case to settle the powder some, I even know of a guy that uses a vibrator from the porn shop and touches it to the side of the case to settle the powder in the case. I have a couple of loads I can't drop from the powder measure because it overfills the case, I drop the load into the scale pan and them into a funnel with a long drop tube.
 
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You'll know you have a "compressed load" when you hear the crunch when seating the bullet. It's a bit unnerving IMO. I can get 25.8g of varget in a case with 40g's loaded and no crunch, but there is a difference in length between 40 & 69's.
 
Many 223 loads using varget are compressed. A drop tube is your friend, also if you pour the powder slowly and let it "swirl" around the funnel as it goes in, you will find it will not fill the case as much.

BTW, where you at in Indiana?
 
Originally Posted By: biggen0_8Many 223 loads using varget are compressed. A drop tube is your friend, also if you pour the powder slowly and let it "swirl" around the funnel as it goes in, you will find it will not fill the case as much.

BTW, where you at in Indiana? Daleville
 
Not really a reason to go beyond 25 gr of Varget with a 69. Most folks I know stick with the 23.5 to 25 gr load. The lesser being more accurate in most guns.
 
My sierra load manual no.5 has 25.3 of varget as the accuracy load for the 69 seated at 2.26 I believe that is the seating dept.. Not near that info now.. But it has been very accurate in my Ar as well as a friends.. These are 1-9 twists barrels.. The book lists speeds at 2750 for that load but I have not chronoed to see what it is in my 20 inch barrel.. Dan
 
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Be careful compressing stick powders. If the sticks start breaking up into smaller pieces you could have some higher pressures because you are now increasing the burn rate. Drop tube as mentioned above helps a lot. Keep in mind faster speed isn't always better accuracy!
 
Thanks everyone! Seems funny that they would put the range of powder in reloading books that won't fit into the case with the bullet their talking about? I think I'll just stop testing if I hit a good accurate load then empty the rest, and watch for pressure signs along the way.
 
Originally Posted By: viperThanks everyone! Seems funny that they would put the range of powder in reloading books that won't fit into the case with the bullet their talking about? I think I'll just stop testing if I hit a good accurate load then empty the rest, and watch for pressure signs along the way.

Some cases hold more than others. Sometimes a whole BUNCH more!!

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: viperThanks everyone! Seems funny that they would put the range of powder in reloading books that won't fit into the case with the bullet their talking about? I think I'll just stop testing if I hit a good accurate load then empty the rest, and watch for pressure signs along the way.


when we look at reloading data - even commercially published stuff - you have to understand that was for the very specific combination of brass, bullet, powder (and more specifically the lot number of powder used), primer and chamber/barrel of the firearm they used as a test barrel. As soon as you change any one of those variables - which is impossible NOT to do since you're not using their barrel - the data goes from being concrete to a guideline. thats why load developement is still important. You cant just take the max load data, cram the powder into a random case, stuff a bullet on top, and expect it to be 100% guaranteed safe in YOUR gun. powder charge is just one small variable in the big picture.


as noted some cases have varying capacity, even amongst a single caliber. as a general rule of thumb, nato cases tend to be more stout (and therefore have a lower internal volume) and non-nato cases sometimes go the other way. every manufacturer has slightly different internal specs. within the same manufacturer you can even have lot to lot variance in internal case volume as well. This is why precision shooters sort their brass by headstamp and often more detailed points than that.

mind you - like all rules of thumb - this is speaking in VERY general terms.


additionally.....once fired brass will have a different case volume than virgin brass. Likewise fired brass that is only neck sized will have a generally larger volume than full length sized brass.


when you add in the variance of stack that can happen with extruded (stick) powders like varget, its easy to understand where the possible confusion can come from.



as a way to be conservative on components - you can do initial testing with groups of 3 rounds per charge weight, and probably increase your spread from 0.3 gr to 0.5 gr per charge weight used. once you think you've found an accuracy point - then you can reduce the charge weight varience for 2nd round testing (say going from 0.5 gr to 0.2 or 0.3) as well as going to 5 round groups as a way to prove you initial testing.

lets say for example (and these are just random numbers) you made up the following load test of 3 rounds per

25.0 gr
24.5 gr
24.0 gr
23.5 gr
23.0 gr
22.5 gr

if you find that lets say 24.0 gr kind of falls into a sweet spot, but 24.5 and 23.5 were both reasonably accurate too.

so your stage two test might look like

5 rounds per

24.4 gr
24.2 gr
24.0 gr
23.8 gr
23.6 gr


and it might surprise you to find out that the real sweet spot happens at 23.8 grains and not 24.0 like you initially thought.

its just a way (one way of many) to efficiently start to really dial things in.


HTH
 
I went out and shot today and it's funny and makes no sense how one load can be ok and the next step a 1" bigger.
I hit a 20.5 load that shot .625,
And a 21.1 that grouped .700
But on both sides of those by a .03 difference the group enlarged by 3/4 of an inch.
The next tighter group area was 25.6 that grouped .643 which is probably what I try to use. I have not chronograph it yet but with the 16" barrel it should be better I think to have the extra speed in that 69 grain bullet. Primer and case looked good, bolt easy to open. Little raise around firing pin pocket.
Now I have my bullet about .010 off lands so I don't know besides adjusting powder by .01 some on both sides of 25.6 to see if the group tightens. Should I also move bullet closer and farther from lands? And how much in increments?

Thanks guys for your suggestions!
 
you just found the wonder that is barrel harmonics.

http://www.the-long-family.com/optimal%20barrel%20time.htm

varmit al has a pretty good page with some animinations that help us understand a bit better whats going on - even if they're quite exaggerated.

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm


what you're seeing is getting your bullets to exit during the time when the harmonic wave from the powder being set off his back at the chamber of the barrel and not at the muzzle. so every shot is consistent. when you miss this time window for the bullet exit, you get on both sides of that load what is often referred to as a "scatter node" because of the barrel whip out at the tip of the barrel.
 
Viper,,,,,Once you get deep into reloading for consistent accuracy you will find that there are many factors that come into play aside from your powder and charge weights..From brass prep to primer choices, barrel harmonics to neck tension, you can drive yourself a little nuts in the pursuit...Most, myself included, work into the point of 'over thinking' the subject rather than just getting out and enjoying shooting...Take it slow and evaluate the effects of everything you do at the reloading bench with honest evaluation of the shooting bench results...

Fortunately, or unfortunately, health issues have forced me to back down from most shooting related activities but it has given me time to re-evaluate my previous efforts....For right now, I'm happy to fill a few magazines with some cheap factory ammo and just go blasting some paper....However, I know that it won't be long until I get reacquainted with my presses and powder funnels....
 
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