The no B.S. how accurate is you AR 15 thread.

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varminter .223

Well-known member
Im about to call it good enough. It makes no difference what I do or how I load. My Woa 22 Nosler and Bhw 6.5x6.8 are almost identical. Its like a lottery. Three shot .5" groups aren't that hard to come by and in 5 shots 3 are gonna be .5", one is gonna be between a bit beyond that and one will be at an inch. All groups average about just like this. Ocassionally I get the holy grail one hole and on ocassion I get stringing across or at an angle, or a shotgun .750" groups. My scopes are v16, v24, vx1 varity. On ocassion I might get a 1.25" flyer. I have done everything I can find to try with gun and ammo and most of you have lurked into or posted on my various threads. I have good barrels and sd-e triggers and the rest is nothing over the top. How does yours shoot?
 
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I don't know I. I rarely if ever shoot three shot groups. If I did I'd have some real billfold groups. You are shooting on par with most with a good load. I think the last time I pulled out my 20 Prac to check the sights was 0.4 for five shots. Good enough for the killing I needed to do. It shoot like that most times when I just shoot it cold.

Greg
 
My question is just what the h e double hockeysticks does it take to
keep everything at .75 or better all the time. It is bizarre that I can shoot 3 or 4 so good then then one or two just take off......group shift drive me nuts too. I get a good group going and execute what feels to be the perfect shot and its somewhere an inch off.
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223Im about to call it good enough. It makes no difference what I do or how I load. My Woa 22 Nosler and Bhw 6.5x6.8 are almost identical. Its like a lottery. Three shot .5" groups aren't that hard to come by and in 5 shots 3 are gonna be .5", one is gonna be between a bit beyond that and one will be at an inch. All groups average about just like this. Ocassionally I get the holy grail one hole and on ocassion I get stringing across or at an angle, or a shotgun .750" groups. My scopes are v16, v24, vx1 varity. On ocassion I might get a 1.25" flyer. I have done everything I can find to try with gun and ammo and most of you have lurked into or posted on my various threads. I have good barrels and sd-e triggers and the rest is nothing over the top. How does yours shoot?

My experience mirrors yours. I have barrels from BHW, BA, and WOA as well. I can get a good .5 MOA group going and them one gets out there that opens it up to .700" or .800" or more.

Personally, I consider anything under MOA to be great, but that's me and it's more than adequate for what I call "utility" shooting.

I'm sure YOU know this, but it takes A LOT, more than what most have, to shoot a .5 MOA group on demand, back to back.

That's why I like the MOA all day challenge as found on AR15.com.... ONE TARGET, 5-shot groups, five groups shot on one target. No cherry picking groups. Just shoot five groups on ONE TARGET back to back nd what you get is what you get... no time limit.
 
Well, when I ordered my .223 Model 1 upper I got the complete kit ready to install on my existing lower. I got the Varmint version with the ER Shaw 24" barrel with the 1/14" twist. I never shoot bullets heavier than 50 grain so this twist was ideal. I mounted a 6.5-20X Leupold and after I got it sighted in shot my first group with it. Five shots at 100 yards that could be 100% covered with a dime. Then I let shooting buddy try it and his very first five shots ever with the gun duplicated my group. This was 26 grains of Varget with the 50 grain Vmax bullet. Yes I was impressed as was shooting buddy. 10 years later I think that my accuracy has perhaps fallen by the wayside a bit but still- literally out of the box AR-15 that will shoot like that? I was sold. Oh? And shooting buddy? Dang if he did not go and get him one too.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223My question is just what the h e double hockeysticks does it take to
keep everything at .75 or better all the time. It is bizarre that I can shoot 3 or 4 so good then then one or two just take off......group shift drive me nuts too. I get a good group going andr execute what feels to be the perfect shot and its somewhere an inch off.


Well Ritch has been building my guns for five years. I suppose forty years of reloading and the ability to work up loads with no pressure on me. It's just a hunk if steel after all. If it doesn't shoot I work with it. Sometimes it's an easy tweak. Sometimes it's a matter of backing up to square one. No magic there. I have really only had one turkey barrel that won't shoot. It's that 22 Nosler that suvks. I've posted up six targets on another forum with groups of over four inches.

That unconscious thread made me smile. When you're on you are golden. I zone a lot pulling triggers.

Good luck on your quest.

Greg
 
All the bs i have been through trying different things I cant imagine what else to do other than try something other that 50, 55 and 60 bts and v maxes or try slowing it way down.
 
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What trigger do you have in your AR??? The groups you are getting sounds about average. Very few people will tell the truth regarding how accurate "their" AR is. I will say that you need to believe it when you see it and not until. I can pretty much guarantee you that all those folks making big accuracy claims with AR's that shoot 1/4" groups "all day long" and my other favorite, "if I do my part" will have some sort of problem on the day you go to the range with them...bad batch of bullets, primers not right, bore cleaner didn't do right, etc. They shoot just like you or not quite as good and you can take that to the bank.
All that said, the trigger is a point of contention with accuracy in an AR. The hammer swings in a big arc and has way slower lock time than just about every bolt gun made. You need a good trigger in an AR. You also need to be using good bullets. If you are not shooting them now get a box of Berger bullets. Don't get me wrong, the barrel is important to accuracy, but it is not the end of it...many things affect accuracy, the barrel, no matter how perfect is just one of them.

Edit: to put the trigger issue in perspective, realize that a Remington 700 for example, has a striker that moves in a straight line about 1/4" to hit the primer after the sear is broken. The AR hammer swings about a 1 1/2" arc to hit the firing pin. Now consider that the bullet out of a 700 {and most bolt guns} is half way to the target before the primer gets hit in an AR assuming both sears broke at exactly the same millisecond. This time is time that the rifle has to move away from the dead center of the target. Less time less movement better accuracy...more time more movement less accuracy.
 
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GL SHOOTER,

I'd like to ask you a question. You stated & many others have also, that you rarely shoot a 3 shot group. I've been shooting and reloading the best part of 50 years. When I'm searching & loading to find a correct combination, I never shoot anything but 3 shot groups. I just can't see the point in shooting 5 round groups wasting time and money until you find one that will group 3 shots. I maybe doing wrong but I keep shooting 3 rounds until I get a 1 hole group then and only then will I start with 5 round groups. If you'll explain, I'm not too old yet to learn.
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Varminter .223,

I don't know if it's the caliber or the gun that you might be have problems with. I've got 6 AR's in 204 & 223 and 2 of them and 2 of them only, 1-223 & 1-204 both with WOA barrels will shoot .5 5 shot groups @ 100 consistently unless I pull one myself or the wind is a factor. That being said, as msinc mentioned, I only shoot Berger's and I do believe they will truly show what your gun is capable of.

My 2$ worth,

Jim D
 
I have geissele sd-e triggers in my 22 Nosler and my 6.5x6.8.
After going back and reviewing my 6.5x6.8 targets that I shot after I got my neck tension and seating depth figured out it is looks to be a pretty solid .8 or better gun with a vx 1 3-9. Im pretty happy with that as I doubt I can hold it much better with that fat duplex.
 
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Originally Posted By: varminter .223I have geissele sd-e triggers in my 22 Nosler and my 6.5x6.8.
After going back and reviewing my 6.5x6.8 targets that I shot after I got my neck tension and seating depth figured out it is looks to be a pretty solid .8 or better gun with a vx 1 3-9. Im pretty happy with that as I doubt I can hold it much better with that fat duplex.

That is not bad real world shooting at all. You have to separate real world from internet. Geissele triggers are not bad, I have one in one of my AR's. Because of the very slow lock time of an AR I believe one of the biggest factors in accuracy, is shooting technique in general. It has to do with how still you can hold the rifle and your follow thru. Guns with slow lock times can shoot fantastic, but your shooting technique has to be on the money. Good luck.
 
Your 3x9 power fat duplex might be opening the groups up. But it's still shooting good. I have my 6x6.8 BHW barreled ar and I have seen it shoot 1/4 groups or even smaller but there is more to it then you think. There is reloadingfactors even component consintency, weather, human error. There are so many factors it's hard to really tell sometimes. If you have got a load to shoot .75-.5 moa call it good and the rest is proably human error weither it's your reloading factors i.e. neck tension, case sizing, anealing, there's a lot to it I think. One day I was at the range and was t getting the accuracy I was wanting and what I got out of this load before I called Ritch up and talked to him he told me go to the range tomorrow and see what the it does. Guess what it was shooting like I was wanting it to shoot the day. Score. There's good trigger days and bad trigger days. Another big one at further distances can be miraige too in my experience. Generally the guns are more accurate then the shooter themselves in my experience.
 
The best group that I shot with my 20in 6.5 Grendel measured .431in

I can shoot under an inch with my .308 which I am willing to accept because I am using a fast acquisition reticle which really is not designed for precision shooting.

So far I haven't had any coyotes complain about the accuracy of my rifles.
 
Im just here helping old men with technology

pic:

20479839_10155686902891812_3965468051901425495_n.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Texas SwiftyGL SHOOTER,

I'd like to ask you a question. You stated & many others have also, that you rarely shoot a 3 shot group. I've been shooting and reloading the best part of 50 years. When I'm searching & loading to find a correct combination, I never shoot anything but 3 shot groups. I just can't see the point in shooting 5 round groups wasting time and money until you find one that will group 3 shots. I maybe doing wrong but I keep shooting 3 rounds until I get a 1 hole group then and only then will I start with 5 round groups. If you'll explain, I'm not too old yet to learn.
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Varminter .223,

I don't know if it's the caliber or the gun that you might be have problems with. I've got 6 AR's in 204 & 223 and 2 of them and 2 of them only, 1-223 & 1-204 both with WOA barrels will shoot .5 5 shot groups @ 100 consistently unless I pull one myself or the wind is a factor. That being said, as msinc mentioned, I only shoot Berger's and I do believe they will truly show what your gun is capable of.

My 2$ worth,

Jim D

Statistical numberS enter into the equation. Three shots will often look super but then when you put those extra two in there the variables start to appear and make that slight difference.

Ideally to get it right I believe the calculated number was thirteen shots according to the statisticians. I have a short ton of targets with great three shot groups until you add in the extra two and find that 0.188 is now a 0.222 or that 0.375 is now a 0.479. Thirteen is way past reasonable for cost and time so five it is.

BTW I usually will shoot two five shot groups at each charge weight so I can instant verification of the load viability. Shooting time is very truncated here when it's 100+ and I'm getting old.

Additionally most of the shooting I've done centers around multiples of five. I am looking at laying on my belly and shooting 20 shots in a string at extended distances and if the load won't hold up to five it probably won't hold up to twenty.

I will shoot threes under two circumstances. The first being in cartridge gotta have some pressure indicators some accuracy data. When I helped developed the American 30 three of us were shooting independently and we needed the numbers in a hurry. I probably shot over 300 loads on my end doing my own and verifying Ritch's data. I compiled hundreds of groups and chronograph speeds on that and we walked away with a winner.

The second reason is if I have a real barrel burner on my hands like a 20-250 or a 22-243. Barrel life on a $400.00 tube of less than 1,000 rounds is not one that I want to just throw away with five per group. My load development is down and dirty with those. I'll start right up near the top as I have determined from all the input I can get or the research I can do. My goal is 50 rounds MAX down the tube and at that point I hope to have a good load.

I spent years teaching how to put a bullet on target the first time every time all day long , I had to say that to keep up with the keyboard cowboys, with classes as long as three weeks. I made sure my students, and myself, did their part every time. Our task was not sport but the deadly serious part on the other end of the scale. More than a few went to the mountains and sandbox during that time. We shot groups under pressure to get the guys use to the need for speed in every aspect. The guns and ammunition had to hold up under those five and and ten shot strings.

There is a theory/saying that three shots prove the gun and five shots prove the shooter. All I know for sure is one shot under pressure proves the total package. Sometimes that comes on a PD and others times it comes on a huge 0.5 MOA X-ring out there at 500+. I want to know that shot #1,shot #5 or shot #20 are going to be right there.

So my theories and at the end of the day we all have our standards. It can vary from rifle to rifle and cartridge to cartridge. As long as we all end up where we want even the one shot group shooter can be a champion.

Greg
 
The above pic in dozers above post is 5 shots with one out of the group. That one hole is a staple hole. This the kind of problems I'm talking about. #4 was the wild one.
 
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Other than the stars aligning properly
smile.gif
, the older I get, the more importance I place on sight picture due to deteriorating eyesight. Finding the proper relationship between the actual aiming point and the particular reticle is critical to good results. I rely heavily on variable scopes to adjust reticle to aiming point. Once that is established (and it varies a lot from day to day, mostly due to changes in brightness), THEN, given a good rifle/load combination, concentrating on good shooting technique, I find the groups begin to shrink.

Regards,
hm
 
I got a stripped lower, and used a standard mil. parts kit with a RRA match 2 stage trigger, a bigger grip, and adjustable stock.

I got the upper complete from MidWay. it was in the $300 range with 1:9 twist and after break-in.

I was using the 53gr vmax factory Hornady ammo. the scope is Nikon buckmaster,BDC, 4x12 almost sitting on the hand guard.

here is the pic of the results. I haven't bothered to start hand loading yet. I don't have enough time to get to all the things i would like to and with these results, why bother?

I think i just got lucky. (and shooting this group using a lead sled)

 
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