Ever hear of a 12 MOA AR?

R

Rock Knocker

Active member
Unimaginable, absolutely terrible. I tried getting 53gr vmaxs and CFE223 to shoot this spring but after a few shots at 200 on a very foggy day some of the shots were who knows where off target so I tried again last week and I got a 1 inch group at 75yards shooting from a not very stable area. So I reloaded another 40 rounds of 27.5gr CFE223 with some 53 vmaxes and today shooting from a bench at 107 yards I was getting groups of 12inches, OR WORSE, some were totally off the target and could have gone heavens knows where.

Never seen anything shoot so bad.

And it's not the gun, after 3 groups with of the garbage load I shot some groups with my "cheap" reloads hornady 50gr SP with H335, they were shooting under an inch with a 4x scope.

I just don't get it, I'm glad my cheap stuff shoots great but I wanted a less temperature sensitive powder than H335 for hunting and a higher BC bullet than the 50gr SP.

I've done alright with 53 vmax and H335 but my gun HATES CFE223.
 
If I recall it seems like I had an AR that hated 53s too.......might be my stag mod 6 super varminter. Could of been my pre Hillary defeat Palmetto 9 twist though.
 
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It's a real head scratcher for me. I've been burning up some CCI BR4 primers trying to get a real nice hunting load but each time I've shot the BR4s it's been terrible. The one inch group I got at 75 yards was strange because I was using some rounds I had left over from the spring attempt with BR4s but sense I shot some(but not all) in the spring I loaded some more up for a second 5 shot test but I forgot the originals had BR4s and the second group I loaded had CCI400s.

Must have been a total fluke that I got the one inch group with mixed primers but pure BR4s produces a shotgun pattern.
 
Try some benchmark or imr8208xbr. Maybe cci 450 primers. What cases you using? How far are you planning on shooting this?
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223If I recall it seems like I had an AR that hated 53s too.......might be my stag mod 6 super varminter. Could of been my pre Hillary defeat Palmetto 9 twist though.

Same here. My 1:8 Stag 6h HATES 55gr. Moved up to 77-80gr and Ramshot TAC and have 3 or 4 out of 5 touching at 100. With that twist, try the heavies.
 
Too bad I just picked up 1000 CCI400 primers, they work well with H335. I'm using Lake City cases, and for how far do I plan on shooting, realistically when I'm out hunting I might get one chance to take a 300 yard shot each year.

My main goal was to find a less temperature sensitive powder, I practice in 90+ degree heat and hunt in -20 or lower temps, this winter on some of the bitter cold nights I could tell my H335 reloads were shooting differently. I'm not even looking for highest possible velocities, I usually load them down a little if I'm shooting holes through coyotes.

How is the IMR8208XBR and benchmark for temp stability? I've heard a lot about benchmark I just never see the stuff available around here. And is the IMR8208 the stuff with the shiny gold label? I've heard it called Gold Dust, if thats what I think it is there is some at the shop just down the road from me.

I've thought about some heavier rounds but I'm trying to keep it light to keep pass throughs at a minimum. And my 50gr loads shoot groups smaller than what my scope reticle covers. I've got some old ammo from my 24" upper that's made with Varget and 69SMKs, haven't done much testing with it in the 16" but I don't want to hunt with that stuff anyways.
 
i find that CFE223 - at least in my gun - like to be right around 100% case fill. somewhere right near or at a max charge i get a SD numbers in the single digits and have with multiple bullets - including 55gr. I've not tried the 53's because i have a buttload of 55's, 68's and 75s.

my primary 223 is a 7 twist WOA barrel.

just for reference purposes
cci 400, FC brass, COAL 2.250, 55gr vmax. 27.4 gr cfe 223. 3262 fps, SD 6.4.
this is a max charge according to hornady so buyer beware and all that.
 
I went up to 28.5gr CFE223 when I shot a bunch of different test groups, 28.5 gave me almost a 3" group at 75 yards and my primers were starting to flatten out.

My test last week was 27.5 to 28.5 in .25gr increments, 3 shot groups, 2 of ever 3 were CCI400 primers and 1 from each group was BR4. None were spectacular, but 27.5 was under an inch so I tried more primed with BR4 and ended up with one foot groups.

I would like CFE to work, I've got nearly a pound of it and around 80 more Vmaxs to try. I want to test out some different primers but I don't see a primer switch making that huge of a difference.
 
Please go back and shoot some more groups with the load that shot before. If they shoot good again you have ruled out a gun,scope, and mounts issue. Maybe even buy a box of proven factory ammo to confirm the gun.
Then I would try another type and style of bullet to see if that works.

I have a 22-250 that will not shoot 55 grain softpoints from one maker, but will shoot sierra #1365 55 gr in 3/4" at 200 yards.

My Ar 15 will shoot hornady 55 gr softpoints with cannalure very well. I don't understand the difference in results, but I will accept them and load what works for me.
 
My 1-8 twist AR barrel shoots 4" groups with 53 grain Vmax but shoots .5-3/4" groups with 50 grain Vmax and the same powder charge. I don't think it likes the jump to the lands with the 53's as they seem to have to be seated deeper in relation to ogive to meet mag length.
 
Originally Posted By: MPFDMy 1-8 twist AR barrel shoots 4" groups with 53 grain Vmax but shoots .5-3/4" groups with 50 grain Vmax and the same powder charge. I don't think it likes the jump to the lands with the 53's as they seem to have to be seated deeper in relation to ogive to meet mag length.

I don't think it's the bullets causing the problem because with very little testing I got 53gr Vmaxes to shoot ~1moa with H335, in fact that's what I was hunting with all last winter, the problem is that the ammo was really bogging down at -10 degrees and a couple shots at -25 didn't even make my ears ring and they were misses(of course ammo's fault.)

From the looks of it the Vmaxs are a tangent ogive(correct me if I'm wrong) which usually don't like much of a jump but I think the Hornady 50gr SP also look like a tangent ogive and last night I found they shot better seated at 2.235" than 2.25".
 
I finally got a hold of some guys that run a range almost an hour north of me, they switched numbers and stopped answering the phone a couple years ago. Trying to find a rifle range in MN is sickening, it's honestly been almost 3 years sense I've had a combination of a full 100 yards to shoot, a bench to shoot from and a huge bonus, no 3-4 foot tall grass between me and the target. Trying to do load development leaning on trees or laying prone in tall grass is hopeless.

I switched from CCI400 primers to CCI450 and I loaded some 65gr gamekings with CFE223 and got groups of .5-.75".

After I figured those out I picked up some benchmark and restarted my 53gr Vmax testing also switching to CCI450 primers. In my first test group 26.5gr of benchmark gave me .75" group at 100, I'm going to load some more up in that range and if they stay around .75" that will be what I coyote hunt with this year.
 
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I have never used Benchmark but my buddy has and I believe it is one of Hodgens extreme powders that are less sensitive to temps. I know 8208 in my experience is very temp stable. It’s what I use in my 6x6.8.
 
If it gets down under -25 like it did last winter this benchmark will get a work out. I've been using varget and H4831sc(both Hodgdon extreme) for some local competition stuff both in winter and summer and never had to change my load, the stuff works. And I've got a buddy that just put together his first 6.8 and we just loaded his first test batch with H4198, another extreme powder that will get a full Minnesotan 4 season test.

Speaking of H4198, not to derail my own thread, but DANG I picked up a pound of it for my buddy and it was $35.99 for a pound! Is that normal for this powder? The shop I was at usually has decent prices, and the rest of their powders seemed priced right but H4198 was $36 and H322 was $30, I haven't shopped for these powders before but I haven't seen prices like that since the middle of obamers reign.
 
My friend Nate has recently gotten bitten by the reloading bug. We went out about a week ago to do some load development testing. We started with a control group with factory loaded Hornady 55gr Vmax's out of his 16in, suppressed AR, and his group was ugly! Group wasn't the right word, it was more of a pattern. Switched over to his hand loaded 60gr Hornady SP's, and his groups tightened right up.

I have noticed that recently the Vmax's are not flying as tight as they used to. They used to be my go to bullets of choice, but as of the last year or so, they just don't fly that well. Not sure if it is a manufacturing issue, powder charge, or just plain quality control but they don't group like they used to. I have found that the Hornady SP factory loads fly much better.

Don't give up, keep chasin the demon, but it can be addictive.
 
From this upper I've loaded and shot Hornady 50gr SP, Berger 52gr HP, 53gr Vmax, Hornady 55gr SP, 65gr Gamekings and 69gr match kings. All of those have shot under a minute (considering the large duplex for the illumination in the VXR's, I'm happy.) It was only the CFE/53 vmax combo that was off the charts(targets) bad.

Sometimes it takes some monkeying around to get under a minute with one or another trying Benchmark, H335, Varget and CFE223. I bought a bag of 1000 primed LC brass with CCI400 primers and now that I have shot all those up I just went through my first 100 CCI450 primers and I'm quite happy with them so far, I've got another 800 or 900 400's around not in brass and it doesn't look like I'm going back to them except for plinking stuff.

This 16" barrel has more load development on it than my 260AI Fclass rig. I really like the Black Hole Weaponry barrel, I just would like a crony so I could really button things down but I'm happy. I've also though about taking my 32x nightforce off the 260 and mounting it on the AR because I know I can't do the barrel justice with the scope on now, but it's a great hunting scope.
 
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