Which pattern would you rather have?

Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotven that the tss shot penetrates like crazy and patterns even crazier, i am still not convinced those little #4 pellets, even a bunch of them, are enough to kill a coyote reliably out at 40 and beyond.


I won't be totally convinced either until I actually do it. But, I absolutely expect that #4's will kill at least as well as Hevi-shot BB, which I have killed a few with and it kills quite a bit better than lead BB.

Don't expect I will order any more #4's after these are gone, and I don't have that much of it left. Not going to pattern with it anymore, save what's left for killing. But unless it really surprises me in a good way, I doubt I'll order them again.

But I do want to play with #3's. Bob has some and I'm anxious to see what it does for him. I'll most likely order some for myself before the season starts.

I have another 10 lbs of #2's ordered already though
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- DAA
 
Love the M2. I even like the overly long magazine extension. I've tried shooting trap with that long extension empty and with 9 shells in it and I actually prefer the handling with it full.

Like the SpeedBead. But am not completely trusting the mount to hold zero through a season of use and abuse. It has held so far, so maybe I'm not being fair, but, I'm suspicious of it.

Would just drill and tap and be done with it. But, I LIKE the position of the SpeedBead mount. I bring the shotgun up just like I would if it had no optic on it and it's lined up perfect, big field of view because it is close to my eye. I've shot a few rounds of trap with it and I bust more birds with it than without it. I can't say for certain without actually trying it, but I don't think I'd like it nearly as well if it were mounted up on top of the receiver like a more traditional optic.

Have said before, but the coyotes I'm typically shooting at with a shotgun, are more like shooting doves (big ones), than shooting something like turkeys. Jackrabbits are actually the best comparison. They are usually running and zigging and zagging and leaping and ducking through the brush. I really don't think I'd like something that mounted/operated like a traditional optic for what is really just low flying wing shooting.

If nothing else though, it sure is nice for patterning, lol!

- DAA
 
Now that you mention the jackrabbit comparison, I bet that would make good practice. Some of those bouncing rabbit clay pigeons over some rough ground.
 
While #1 is a very impressive pattern, for hunting situations with coyotes, I would go with #2. I think it has plenty of pellets concentrated in the center of the pattern but has enough spread to account for movers. That more open spread will help if your a little behind or to far ahead when you pull the trigger on a mover. I would imagine #1 would be about like a slug closer in.
 
I guess that I would just be afraid of too many runners with a pattern like #2. Too many of us are guilty (yes, my hand is up) of not letting the critters get close enough before we decide to shoot. At least with pattern #1 there would be more killing hits out further.

Just my thinking here. I would hate to dust any animal and watch it run off.
 
Dave,

I wish we could hunt with a mag tube, limited to 5 total in a semi-auto.

I've never even seen a SB other than pics. Sure would like to try one out.

Thanks for the info !
 
Originally Posted By: RustydustI guess that I would just be afraid of too many runners with a pattern like #2. Too many of us are guilty (yes, my hand is up) of not letting the critters get close enough before we decide to shoot. At least with pattern #1 there would be more killing hits out further.

Just my thinking here. I would hate to dust any animal and watch it run off.

With a real tight pattern it is very easy to hit the animal with the edge of the pattern and have them run off. If your shot is not perfect with the tight pattern you may get less pellets into the coyote than you would with the more open pattern.
 
Originally Posted By: GCDave,
I may have missed it, what ranges do you get your shots at for the most part?

I have two very different situations where I carry a shotgun.

One, is "shotgun stands". Down in the sagebrush. The kind of stand I just don't bother to make with a rifle. Not often I could shoot over 50 yards on those stands even if I wanted to. Majority of shots between 15 and 40 yards, with shots under 15 yards not terribly uncommon. Usually only have a couple seconds to shoot. Have been using Hevi-shot BB for those. And it's those I'll use the TSS #4 I have left on. Then probably go back to the HS BB.

Another, are "rifle stands", with a partner. Classic, typical high desert rifle stand where I often see them coming from hundreds of yards out, sometimes from a mile out. I'd never carry only a shotgun on a stand like this, so if I'm alone, I'm packing a rifle. But with a partner to cover the rifle firing lanes, I have started carrying the shotgun quite a bit on them. Partly because it's just fun, but also because the shotgun is awesome on the kamikazes that just run the caller over. Seeing a kamikaze coming from a quarter mile out and never slowing down, running full speed right for the caller and blasting it in the face at 20 yards with the shotgun is TOO MUCH FUN!

Most common shot isn't a full blown kamikaze, but a coyote that runs in and runs by without stopping - crossing shots at typically 40 or 50 yards. Or one that runs all the way in and does a 180 and runs back out, coyotes running away at also typically 40 yards. They run by further out than that a lot too, but I hold off and hope my partner with the rifle can clean them up and he does a heckuva good job at that
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I've been using a 1-3/4 oz. load of nickel plated F on these stands. This is where I'll be trying TSS #2 this season.

Longer shots are very often presented on the rifle stands. I still try not to shoot past 50 unless it's one already hit and running. But, misjudging distance happens, I've taken a few shots I thought were about 50 that ended up being more like about 60. I'll be using TSS #2 on these stands
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. I don't intend to intentionally start taking first shots at longer distances unless I start seeing some real eye opening killing performance with the TSS #2. Which, maybe? Be nice to feel comfortable with a 60 yard shot on a stationary facing coyote. And I think it's actually likely with the TSS #2 load. The pattern is there and the penetration sure seems to be too. But, we'll see.

Shorter answer, most of my shotgun shots are between 15 and 45 yards. With more on the close end on shotgun stands, more on the long side on rifle stands. But there are a lot of 50 - 60 yard shots "presented" on rifle stands that I just haven't been taking.

- DAA
 
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Originally Posted By: RustydustI guess that I would just be afraid of too many runners with a pattern like #2. Too many of us are guilty (yes, my hand is up) of not letting the critters get close enough before we decide to shoot. At least with pattern #1 there would be more killing hits out further.

Just my thinking here. I would hate to dust any animal and watch it run off.

Russ, I can only speak to my own limited experience and what I've seen. And I reserve the right to change my mind later! But, I think I'd get more bad hit runners with pattern #1 than I will with pattern #2. Having 95 of those pellets in a 10" circle is extreme over kill. Most shotgun loads, I'm thrilled to see 25 pellets in a 10" circle. Pattern #2 still has 50 in the 10" and you could draw 10" circles in different spots around that pattern clear out to the edges and still have 25+ in those circles. So, the way I'm looking at it right now, pattern #1 is only a 10" circle of death. Pattern #2 is a 20" circle of death.

- DAA
 
"Most common shot isn't a full blown kamikaze, but a coyote that runs in and runs by without stopping - crossing shots at typically 40 or 50 yards. Or one that runs all the way in and does a 180 and runs back out."

Those are pretty typical shots for me. I see your point, and can appreciate it. In fact, looking at my Updated Summary from the shotgun thread I'm averaging 35 hits in 12" @ 40 yards with HD-BB. Best I can remember I had a nice center dense pattern with evenly distributed pellet strikes around that core. With that said, I'm betting my patterns actually more closely resemble your #2 pattern. Only yours has more of the #4 pellets of course than my BB load. I could be real happy with those TSS #2's I think. Seems a really good compromise. Had a honking big coon swagger across my back lawn yesterday evening... would have made a great target of opportunity for those #4's.
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Originally Posted By: DAA T

The way I'm looking at it right now, pattern #1 is only a 10" circle of death. Pattern #2 is a 20" circle of death.

- DAA

You know, that makes perfect sense to me. Sure does.

But I have killed exactly the same number of coyotes with a shotgun as I have killed charging cape buffalos with my .221 Fireball!
 
Originally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: RustydustI guess that I would just be afraid of too many runners with a pattern like #2. Too many of us are guilty (yes, my hand is up) of not letting the critters get close enough before we decide to shoot. At least with pattern #1 there would be more killing hits out further.

Just my thinking here. I would hate to dust any animal and watch it run off.

Russ, I can only speak to my own limited experience and what I've seen. And I reserve the right to change my mind later! But, I think I'd get more bad hit runners with pattern #1 than I will with pattern #2. Having 95 of those pellets in a 10" circle is extreme over kill. Most shotgun loads, I'm thrilled to see 25 pellets in a 10" circle. Pattern #2 still has 50 in the 10" and you could draw 10" circles in different spots around that pattern clear out to the edges and still have 25+ in those circles. So, the way I'm looking at it right now, pattern #1 is only a 10" circle of death. Pattern #2 is a 20" circle of death.

- DAA

The turkey hunter side of me instantly picked #1 but after reading your reasoning for pattern #2 I also think it would be the best.
 
Originally Posted By: Boomstick1, as long as it's consistant.

That issue, of being consistent, is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

I've shot over two hundred patterns through my M2 just in the last few months. All 100% specific to coyote loads. Most of the load and choke combo's I expect to use the most, I have ten or more test patterns each with now if I include all distances. For my Hevi-shot BB and Nickel Plated F loads, for instance, I have dozens of patterns with each, including three or more patterns each from 40, 50 and 60 yards through multiple chokes.

I have all the data from all of the above well organized in spreadsheet form. And pictures of every single pattern in a photo database that I can search and sort by shot size and type, choke, distance etc. So that with just a few clicks, I can pull up the statistics for every pattern tested with any combo complete with charts and graphs in one window and pictures of all those patterns in another window, side by side.

I am just about come to the opinion that "consistent" and "shotgun" are a contradiction of terms
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Well, maybe not quite that bad, but almost...

I "think" (don't "know") that pattern #1 has the potential to be consistent under the right set of variables. Number One of which, would be a squeaky clean barrel and choke.

By the same token, I know for dog gone sure, that it absolutely will NOT be consistent comparing a squeaky clean barrel and choke to well filthed barrel and choke. With that particular load and choke, the difference between squeaky clean and nicely filthed is dramatic.

But I also know, for dog gone sure, that it takes a HECKUVA lot of pattern testing to have much of a clue as to what "consistent" looks like. And I do not expect to ever get there with TSS testing.

As a side note, I'm making the very deliberate choice to base my load and choke decisions on the performance of a dirty barrel and choke. From what I have seen, so far, the "dirty" state is just a lot more stable, predictable and easy to maintain than the clean state, so that's where I'll be operating. I plan to make sure my barrel and chokes are good and dirty at the start of the season and I won't clean them until the season is over.

That said... I have proven to my own satisfaction that pretty much every load and choke I have tested patterns tighter when everything is squeaky clean. But, as was the basic point of this thread, to me, there definitely is such a thing as "too tight". And I have been more than satisfied and pleased with the much more predictably consistent patterns I get from a well filthed system.

And like just about everything else "shotgun", I reserve the right to change my mind as more data becomes available
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- DAA
 
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