Found a den

If one of the landowners that I do predator control work for caught wind that I gave ANY coyotes a pass (even pups) I would lose my access to their property. Choice is simple for me. There is only one choice.
 
Originally Posted By: Carlos HalfcockSo when you find a den like that how do you destroy it or kill the pups? Just curious from the experts.

I'm hesitant to ask but still waiting on an expert answer on this^^^^^. I hear people talk about if you shoot a wet female, the ethical thing to do is go find the den and dispatch the pups, as to avoid a slow death by dehydration.

I'm thinking huh? Coyotes have multiple dens and they regularly move their pups between them. A lot of them also have more than one entrance, so;

Unless you see or hear, how do you know for certain they are in there? Unless you have a trail hound,trackhoe or a shovel with a decent amount of time to kill, how do you know you are not just dicking around an empty hole? Unless you are carrying all the equipment necessary to dig out or methods to fumigate the den, how do you keep them from leaving while you go get all the equipment?

Hunting my way in to make a stand I have killed a few right by their dens. I shot one that made it into the hole before dying at at an arms length depth, where I was able to reach in and pull it out. I've come across other dens with very fresh tracks at the opening. I have thought about how to get them out but always decide it is easier to just go find another one to call in and kill...
 
Quote:I'm hesitant to ask but still waiting on an expert answer on this^^^^^. I hear people talk about if you shoot a wet female, the ethical thing to do is go find the den and dispatch the pups, as to avoid a slow death by dehydration.

I'm thinking huh? Coyotes have multiple dens and they regularly move their pups between them. A lot of them also have more than one entrance, so;

Having spent a fair amount of time around dens photographing pups and adults, I too question people giving the politically correct answer with little or no attempt/ability to even begin the search effort alone.
Few people could claim success regularly with finding and eliminating all the pups. Again, how would they know?
 
Originally Posted By: Infidel 762
Unless you see or hear, how do you know for certain they are in there? Unless you have a trail hound,trackhoe or a shovel with a decent amount of time to kill, how do you know you are not just dicking around an empty hole? Unless you are carrying all the equipment necessary to dig out or methods to fumigate the den, how do you keep them from leaving while you go get all the equipment?



The furthest thing from an expert. But I've done a few "ride alongs" with real ADC guys doing real denning work.

And yeah, you do need to make some plans and preparations. Including everything you mentioned, except for the track hoe
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(although, in all honesty, I've heard of using heavy equipment too, for real). I've been the guy sitting there with his feet literally in the den hole (to make sure nobody leaves) while the real expert went back for a shovel, too.

Basics are simple. Locate by seeing, hearing, dog, tracking, any combination thereof. There are specific tracking methods to narrow the search, likewise specific strategies for hearing them. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, a good dog is your best asset. But I've spent more than a whole day looking for a single den, and failed, more than once. I've also experienced a great dog finding the den while we were still counting placenta scars on the dead female.

But, get lucky or get unlucky, find if fast or spend a couple days, whatever it takes, you just do your best.

Once found. Close off all entrances with shovel and drop a couple (big) smoke bombs down the hole. Continue to close off any spots you see smoke coming out of the ground.

Get a count by placenta scars.

To each his own, and whatever. But to me, if you aren't prepared, willing and able to kill BOTH adults, then to carry all that out, you aren't actually doing real ADC work. This is especially my opinion if you only kill one of the old ones and do nothing about the den. I think often as not, you are doing more harm and as likely as not to cause more "animal damage", than any actual good ADC. Almost everyone I've ever met that claimed to be "doing ADC" didn't know poop from apple butter about any of this. Pure Pretenders.

I don't bother pretending. I don't do ADC. More because I don't want to, than because I don't know how, though.

- DAA
 
Jeremy, I am by far an expert but we used to den them when I was younger. Lot's of digging with a shovel with 3 or 4 guys. We would start digging at each entrance, usually only 2 openings. Stick the shovel handle as far down the hole as you could every couple of feet. If ma or pa was in the hole they would bite the shovel handle.
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We would bring the pups home, some we raised and some we sold.
 
I was horseback last week and rode up on a pair with 7 pups. Was just out getting a couple of dogs in shape. They chased the adults into the woods and the pups ran into a drainage whistle. I called my wife because I was only a couple of miles from the house and told her to bring the terriers. They pulled 3 of them out and I let them go. I'm a coyote hunter. I suspect a deer hunter wouldn't kill a fawn if he came across one. I find it funny when someone thinks killing them is going to do some big favor to wildlife and cattle. Guys like Randy Roode have a job and their job is dead coyotes, no matter if their in the womb or in the ground or anywhere else. He kills dozens and even hundreds offf the same place and goes back to the same places year in and year out and guess what, he kills just as many as he did the years before. I could give a rip if a guy kills pups or not but let's not bs each other and beat our chests and act like we're having an impact on their numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: SHamptonI was horseback last week and rode up on a pair with 7 pups. Was just out getting a couple of dogs in shape. They chased the adults into the woods and the pups ran into a drainage whistle. I called my wife because I was only a couple of miles from the house and told her to bring the terriers. They pulled 3 of them out and I let them go. I'm a coyote hunter. I suspect a deer hunter wouldn't kill a fawn if he came across one. I find it funny when someone thinks killing them is going to do some big favor to wildlife and cattle. Guys like Randy Roode have a job and their job is dead coyotes, no matter if their in the womb or in the ground or anywhere else. He kills dozens and even hundreds offf the same place and goes back to the same places year in and year out and guess what, he kills just as many as he did the years before. I could give a rip if a guy kills pups or not but let's not bs each other and beat our chests and act like we're having an impact on their numbers.

Yep^^^^^

So many folks like to talk about "their ranchers" and the "predator control" they do for them. Most of these folks dont kill 10 or 12 coyotes a year.

I have many land owners. I make no claims to do predator control for them. I ask them if I can hunt and they say yes or no. Im a rec hunter and nothing more. I treat them with respect but I dont have time to control their coyotes. Sure, I kill some, but thats the extent of it. If they want predator control they need to hire a professional. You will NOT control coyotes by going out a few times a year and playing rabbit on 40.
 
Originally Posted By: SHamptonI was horseback last week and rode up on a pair with 7 pups. Was just out getting a couple of dogs in shape. They chased the adults into the woods and the pups ran into a drainage whistle. I called my wife because I was only a couple of miles from the house and told her to bring the terriers. They pulled 3 of them out and I let them go. I'm a coyote hunter. I suspect a deer hunter wouldn't kill a fawn if he came across one. I find it funny when someone thinks killing them is going to do some big favor to wildlife and cattle. Guys like Randy Roode have a job and their job is dead coyotes, no matter if their in the womb or in the ground or anywhere else. He kills dozens and even hundreds offf the same place and goes back to the same places year in and year out and guess what, he kills just as many as he did the years before. I could give a rip if a guy kills pups or not but let's not bs each other and beat our chests and act like we're having an impact on their numbers.

I have a spot like that. Kill 5 to 10 coyotes sitting in the same exact spot every year. I usually kill about 20 off of the same 600 acres every year. They simply keep moving in. Never a shortage.
 
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Originally Posted By: TJT3where are the trail cam pics?

The only pictures I got were 2 coyotes and 1 hog, the rest were just these guys...



No pups at all, they must of moved or that wasn't their true den. And have not seen them since that one day.
 
Originally Posted By: coleridgeOriginally Posted By: jim87formula I didn't tell the rancher about it, which the main reason I am hunting there is to get rid of the coyotes and hogs but I think I might leave the coyotes alone for about a month or so.

What would y'all do?

I know if the rancher knew he would want me to dispatch them but think I am going to act like I didn't see them. Since I have been over there hunting they haven't lost any calves in 3 months.

There are many good points (both sides) in the thread and each member has their right to feel & do as they wish... However, it seems to me you answered your own question in OP.

You obviously know that the right thing to do is tell the Rancher/Owner. Keeping it from him is the same thing as lying. If you don't want to kill the pups; don't. If rancher or his hand wants them dead he can do it himself or get someone to disperse in your place.

A man has to stand by his ethics and I don't have a problem with a anyone doing whatever he thinks is right in the situation. But to me blatantly disrespect the owner/rancher for your own selfish wants is a much poorer set of ethics than killing pups. A mans word & trust is the most important thing he has... Not trying to judge or run you down. Just something more to think about. Is waiting a month so the (still) pups will come to your call worth your integrity?

I didn't ask for you to comment on my actions, my question was directed to you and everyone else 'what would you do?' out of curiosity, nothing more. And nothing else to think about. Funny though that you add that I'm selfish and disrespectful to the land owner due to my actions/ethics. This would be true if there was harm or destruction to his cattle or property and if I looked the other way. Next time, save your time and your fingers on typing this type of stupidity.
 
Originally Posted By: flintrockI usually don't post on "what would you do" threads. We are all individuals and willing to stand different consequences for our actions. Do what you like. I would just say that around here, if I'm not getting the job done, there is always someone else willing to try.

Sorry, not trying to jack your thread, or Brownie, your reply, but that heifer died trying to deliver that calf. Evidenced by the smooth mud under her head and piled up behind her head. Also a smooth path under the calf's head. She laid there and thrashed for quite awhile. Also looks like she got her back and head downhill and hip locked that calf. The blood in the mucous inside her nose lends to suffocating in her own fluids. They do that quickly when they get "stuck" with their backs downhill. That is a management issue more than a coyote issue. The fact that the producer wants to blame it on coyotes is good for you/us though.

I'm no lover of coyotes but this is accurate.
 
Leave them be come back in october and you will have fun calling them in.I found a den to counted 4 its fun going out in the evening and do a howl and hearing them howl back...I have killed pups before for a golf coarse and did not like it.Watched two play and popped one with my 17hmr I still feel like a dirt bag for doing it.
 
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