TSS shot testing

Originally Posted By: blingslingerOriginally Posted By: ackleyman

I read pressure signs on shot shells just like a rifle cartridge. Watch the depth of the lettering, watch the thickness of the rim. When you start to see the thickness of the rim increase, It is real obvious when you are into high pressures. Often, a high base will crack. I have had the Rim crack all the way around from multiple firings of high pressure loads. Primers will fall out of the hulls also. Some primers are larger in dia than others, be aware of this if you are scrounging for shot shell primers.


ackleyman, not trying to shoot you down, because it seems you have done your share of metallic loading and load workup. However, if you read pressure signs on shotshells, as you do on metallic loading, you are swimming in very dangerous territory. They are two completely different animals, and nothing alike when loading. If you can see any pressure signs in a shotshell load, you are well above SAAMI Max safe pressures already.

Its a known fact that shotshells don't show pressure signs like metallic cartridges do, and they can't be worked up in the same manner.

I agree. If you see those signs in a shotshell you are already in too deep.
 
Originally Posted By: blingslingerOriginally Posted By: ackleyman

I read pressure signs on shot shells just like a rifle cartridge. Watch the depth of the lettering, watch the thickness of the rim. When you start to see the thickness of the rim increase, It is real obvious when you are into high pressures. Often, a high base will crack. I have had the Rim crack all the way around from multiple firings of high pressure loads. Primers will fall out of the hulls also. Some primers are larger in dia than others, be aware of this if you are scrounging for shot shell primers.


ackleyman, not trying to shoot you down, because it seems you have done your share of metallic loading and load workup. However, if you read pressure signs on shotshells, as you do on metallic loading, you are swimming in very dangerous territory. They are two completely different animals, and nothing alike when loading. If you can see any pressure signs in a shotshell load, you are well above SAAMI Max safe pressures already.

Its a known fact that shotshells don't show pressure signs like metallic cartridges do, and they can't be worked up in the same manner.

I have no doubt that you are 100% correct in your statement, and thanks for bringing that up. I just have been a poor man, trying to use what hulls I can scrounge to get, with what ever wads, substituting this and that to try and get good patterns. Looking at all the shot shell reloading manuals, and being very familiar with their loads and pressure readings helps a lot. I constantly check the lugs in the shotguns, and examined hulls and fired wads. This is all that poor people can do to try and make things work. Of course, I started with book recommended loads. I have been a big fan of Ballistic Products since Dave Fackler started it way back when lead was used to hunt ducks.Often, you take a load given by a company, and the darn thing will not fit in the components they stated. So, you have to try and substitute another plastic wad that is similar with a shorter height in the shot column. If the manual says you are running 11,000 cup, you are at the top end, and I have never found that LOWERING the shot column with a slightly different wad made pressure go up. Also, as a general rule of thumb, loads that run with a gas seal, Teflon or other wrap, fiber wad have much less pressure than a plastic shot cup. These time consuming gas seal, fiber wad, with wrap also seem to pattern the best of most of the other loads that I have tried. We always like to try a easy one piece wad for convenience.

For those of us that have been loading shot shells for 30 years, we end up with a small fortune invested in wads. It seems to be in the nature of the beast to try and find great hulls and wads to go with as great, tight shooting, patterns are not found as easily with lead shot that deform from pressures.

SO, if a reloading manual states that

3" rem hull
209 primer
42g of Blue dot
1 3/8 oz of shot
Ballistic's products gas seal
Ballistic's products BP12 Wad
1425 fps
11,000 cup

Ok, you shoot the 42g, pattern is blown. Shell ejected ok in the auto, rim and brass look fine. Next, I found the wad and found skirt on gas seal is blown on one side indicating gas blow by from excessive pressure. So, I backed the powder charge off to 39g, 39.5,40,40.5, 41.0g and shoot patterns on each. I found that 40.5g of Blue Dot produced a tight pattern at 40 yards, that is what I ran with.

This is the type of thing that I am referring to.

Steel shot, and other types of hard shot present their own set of problems as the wads have to contain the steel so as not to harm the barrel. I would defer to the manual on these types of loads.

All the load development where I read the pressure signs on the cases were done on Rem 1100's, Rem 870's, and Beretta's of one kind or another, and one SBE. One thing you can take to the bank when working up shot shell loads, is that I have never seen a very high pressure shot shell pattern well, never. As a guy works up in powder charge, starting low from where the book says is max, as he approaches that Max book load, the patterns usually get blown. So, if you see a specific load that looks good due to speed and pressure, you pattern that load in your shotgun, and it is a blown pattern, you have to adjust the pressure for your gun. I have never went over a book max load, but I did work up to that load watching pressure signs on the hulls, patterns, and especially the fired wads.

Maybe this explanation will help.

A shotgun that has been back bored will have less pressure than one that has not. Also, a shotgun that has had the forcing cone lengthened lowers pressure CONSIDERABLY!!!

Bore dia of shotguns vary considerably, this had a dramatic impact on the way wads seal the bore and how the skirts get blown off from over pressure.

tuning a load for a shotgun is harder than doing it for a rifle. Bob's and Dave's loads are nothing short of Olympic Grade Shot shell performance with TSS, and renders most lead pellet shells completely obsolete if a guy wants to shoot game at distances greater than 45 yards. I can only imagine what a Browning Gold 10ga shooting 2 oz of TSS #2 would be able to do at 100 yards.
 
All this safety talk, reminds me of the old lead shot waterfowl days. There were a handful of barn pigeons shot at 50 plus yards with a little bit of h4350 mixed with blue dot. Probably shouldn't mentioned it, but it sure entertained a bunch of farm kids.
 
Great report Dave. I have been using TSS on coyote for a little over a year. Two ounce of #4TSS in my Browning 10ga Gold autoloader. Only 11 coyotes so far. Had a disastrous year for free time, so I did not get out much. Farthest shot 57yds. My load is a BPI load # HS03070. Federal 3.5" 10ga hull. Because of the greater density of TSS I wound up with two 1/4" 20ga cork, one 1/8" 20ga cork, one 1/4" 20ga felt, one MY thick(a wrap inside the shot cup) one TPS wad w/3 slits 3/4 length. one .030 OS card 10ga. 38.0gr/Steel powder. Supposed to be around 1,240fps. Choke is the Browning Turkey Xtra Full. The 2oz of #4TSS yields 180pellets. At 60 yards I had 32 pellets in a 11" circle and 142 pellets in the 30" circle. I did not pattern at 70 yards. The pattern percentages were: 40yds-90%, 50yds-80%, 60yds-79%. 30" circle.

This is the load that has replaced my 2.25oz of nickel plated BB in front of 38gr of Blue Dot. Another deadly killer. Got that load from Gerry Blair about 35 or so years ago.

I have received a lot of help/info from the boys over at the Gobbler Nation web site. Worth a visit. They have a LOT of info on loading all gauges with TSS shot. It appears that high velocity is not needed for TSS loads. The stuff penetrates beyond belief.
 
Originally Posted By: YooperCallerI have received a lot of help/info from the boys over at the Gobbler Nation web site. Worth a visit. They have a LOT of info on loading all gauges with TSS shot. It appears that high velocity is not needed for TSS loads. The stuff penetrates beyond belief.


done some reading over at gobbler nation. seems them boys have a good handle on what kills turkeys.

seems they have some learning to do when it comes killing coyotes.
 
Originally Posted By: YooperCallerSupposed to be around 1,240fps. Choke is the Browning Turkey Xtra Full. The 2oz of #4TSS yields 180pellets. At 60 yards I had 32 pellets in a 11" circle and 142 pellets in the 30" circle. I did not pattern at 70 yards. The pattern percentages were: 40yds-90%, 50yds-80%, 60yds-79%. 30" circle.



Wow! A legit 180 pellet coyote load. That has got to just CRUSH coyotes. Your pattern percentages are interesting to me too. I saw the same just crazy density retention downrange.

I wish I had more money and more time to test more chokes. Have said it repeatedly already, but, my pattern results, I think there is definitely room for improvement with the #4's. That said, I think that load with the Kicks GT .670 is still going to be a very, very solid 50 yard coyote killer.

- DAA
 
If you do enough shotguns shell reloading, you will realize that load recipes only applies to the results with the publisher's components, their shotgun, etc. Those loads were safe in their guns. Now, you try that exact load in your gun, and you may see pressure signs on the case hull, loose primer pocket, or a stuck hull in the chamber.

There are huge difference is bore dia of shotguns. Also, some have smoother bores than others, some have the forcing cones extended, and on and on. Powder and primers vary from lot to lot. Crimp has a tremendous impact on pressure. So, you had better educate yourself on pressure signs and various influences on pressure.

If you are reloading shot shells, and you read where a load is running 11,000 cup, you may had better back off and work up to it.

Examine wads on all shells tested, look at the general condition of the wad. If the gas seal is blown, this indicates high pressure and the load will not pattern well. I have through for a long time thought that lubed wads would make for better patterns. I spoke to Dave Fackler(founder of Ballistic's Products) about this a long time ago and he suggested dipping the wads in Motor mica to help the wad transition through the choke. According to the Machinist's Manual, the coefficient of friction is greater of plastic on steel vs steel on steel. So, reducing friction of the wad against the barrel may pay HUGE dividends in terms of reducing pressure and better patterns. I have wanted to rub Imperial Sizing Wax on the outside of some wads to test, but never have got around to it due to multiple shoulder surgeries.
 
I just got back the results from having two different 2-3/4" 12 ga loads tested. I used different wads but used less powder than the data in RSI's and BPI's manuals.

Both loads were way over 11,500 max psi, not even close. One thing I learned for sure is DO NOT substitute a BPI TPS wad in place of any other wad without having that load tested.
 
016%202.jpg

The above picture are Sam 1 wads from RSI. They look similar to the BPI BP-12 Shotcup that have the friction- reducing ribs on the outside of the wad.

Below is the BPI TPS wad that look just like the Multi Metal wad that BPI no longer makes.
016%204.jpg

You can't use the old Multi-Metal wad data with the newer TPS wads. The BPI TPS wad creates much more pressure than the Sam 1 wads with the ribs on the outside of the wad.

I am going to send in some more 1 oz TSS loads to be tested with a BPGS gas seal wad under a TPS wad. It looks like I will get about the same speed and pressures with about 8 to 9 grains less Steel powder by using the BPI wads over the Sam 1 wad.

I am also going to send in some 3" Fiocchi 1-1/2 oz loads of Hevi-Shot that I got the data from BPI. I want to see how the pressures and speeds look compared to the BPI Hevi-Shot reloading manual.

Both of my test loads that were way over pressure had the BPI Mica Wad Slick on the TPS wads.
 
DAA, I tested my loads with the only choke I had for my Browning Gold. "Hawglips" over on Gobbler Nation recommended I try a more open choke. That might have improved my patterns. I have been shotgunning predators since 1964 on a fairly steady basis. TSS just flies in the face of accepted choke concepts. Mod to ImpMod seems to work the best. Hawglips is pretty much the guru on TSS shotgunning.

I have done a lot of TSS load testing in 28ga also. I even shot one coyote at 53yds with 1oz of #6TSS. He just flopped over. That was that. Best choke for the one ounce load in the 28ga was ImpMod. 1oz #6TSS=139 pellets. I only pattern tested to 40yds. 63pellets in 10", 10"to20" 57 pellets. That is 120 pellets in a 20" circle. 86%. The shotgun was a Beretta 28ga 687 SP3 over/under, 30" bbls. Tried the same load in my Beretta A400 Xplor 28ga, 28" barrel. Pretty much same results.

I pretty much stopped patterning when funding grew shallow. $50 bucks a pound is costly. I did not add buffering to any of my TSS loads. My logic; TSS does not deform in firing.

A few years back you did an outstanding series of articles on the 20/250. At that time a friend and I were running the 20/250AI in Nesika rifles. 50gr Berger bullet at 3950fps. Flat to forever. I retired mine three years ago. Bullets started arriving other than point on. How did your rifle turn out for you?
Carl L.
 
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Carl, I got the same advice from Hal on trying the Mod. choke. So that was the first one I used. Just horrible! I mean, stinky baaaaaaad! With the 4's only 26 of the 131 pellets hit the 2'x2' backer at 40 yards.

untitled-244W.jpg



That was my first ever pattern with TSS. You might say I was not thrilled
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. I tried the Kicks .670 next and it was much, much better. This is the 4's again.

untitled-243W.jpg



So, very, very clearly, my shotgun, the .670 is way better than the .705 Mod for 4's (and 2's as well). But, I'm pretty sure that better could be found for the 4's. But the Mod and the .670 are the only chokes I tried with the 4's.

With the 2's, I tried both of those chokes (the 2's were better than 4's with the Mod but still terrible), but also tried a .665 Dead Coyote. Which did "pretty good" but not "as good" as the .670. That's with 2's. But it has me thinking, that if there is improvement to be had with the 4's, it's probably going the other way, less restriction, but not all the way out to Mod, which I already know is just terrible.

That's what "I'm thinking". Try less constriction. But not so loose as .705. Would like to try a .675 and a .680 with the 4's, but I don't have either one. Next up that I have is the factory full choke at .685.

But, eventually, when I do more testing (which eventually, I will, but it might not be for another year...), I will try the .665 with the 4's first. They aren't the 2's, after all, and where the 2's seem to have shown me the point of diminishing returns with increasing constriction, the 4's might not. I want to make sure, before going the other way.

Something interesting, in a not really good way, about my TSS pattern testing with 4's though. Every choke, every distance, every pair of patterns I have shot, the 2's have had more pellets in the 10" than the 4's. Every, single, time. That kind of defies logic. With 94 pellets in the load of 2's and 131 in the load of 4's. It seems like there is no way at least one choke, one pattern, one distance, the 4's would put more pellets in the 10". But, so far, for me, not one single time. They want a different choke altogether, I think. I say I probably won't test again for a year, but, first chance I get, I'm going to shoot at least one 40 yard pattern using the factory full .685 with the 4's, just to see what I see.

My .20-250 worked out really well. Once I got a bullet that wouldn't splash at 4300 fps, all was good. Last winter I had it neutered though. Cut the barrel down to 19" for a suppressor. Since it's only running 4050 fps now I tried the 39 BK's again and so far they are working well on coyote at that lower velocity. Rifle is still relatively handy even with the 7" can attached. Very low muzzle blast. Very loud meat report
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. Kind of a bummer to chop off 240 fps and throw it in the garbage though. But it's an even more unique rig now, still better than .204 performance in a suppressed rig of normal length.

- DAA
 
Dave, I think for all practical purposes, your testing is done. From now on, it is just for giggles and grins. You have hit the jack pot on your loads!
 
That is simply incredible. Outstanding evaluation and truly impressive resulting patterns. Thanks for putting in the work to bring a new level of credibility to the TSS discussion. Regardless of cost, that looks to be some of the highest performance shotgun ammo you could ever hope for.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanDave, I think for all practical purposes, your testing is done. From now on, it is just for giggles and grins. You have hit the jack pot on your loads!

Keith you know I can't ever leave anything just be
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. Especially not when I still have unanswered questions.

- DAA
 
Somebody pitch in and loan DAA some custom chokes for testing so he can get this figured out.

Wait a year?! Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
 
Dave; I guess I got lucky with my 10ga. Hal told me that TSS was about the same for penetration and energy as lead shot four levels down. That would be about T shot. If this is correct then my #6TSS is about the equal to lead #2 shot. I was going to do a lot of goose hunting with the 28ga, but lost interest. Sad as I have 107 28ga rounds loaded with #6TSS. Not sure what to do with those... probably break them down and use them in the 10ga. I have 50rounds of #4TSS 10ga loaded so I am ready to go there.

My primary weapon of choice is my Browning Gold 10ga. The steel receiver with fiberglass stocks model. Very low felt recoil.
 
Originally Posted By: YooperCaller... Hal told me that TSS was about the same for penetration and energy as lead shot four levels down.

That's a handy yardstick for comparison.
 
If i was trying to sell TSS around here, I'd be sending DAA some free shot after he did all the hard work and detailed testing to show us it's capabilities....
 
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