Springfield Armory and Rock River Turn Their Back on LGS and Residents of Illinois

Brad W

Brad W

New member
I looked and didn't see mention of this anywhere (apologies if it already was) and wanted to see what you guys thought. It is being discussed all over some other forums right now.

SA and RRA are the biggest players (practically sole investors) for a lobbying group that was opposing legislation in Illinois that would do quite a few scary things. It would require additional licensing for manufacturers and ffl dealers on top of the licensing they already require. This would be state based licensing in a state that has quite a bit of anti gun sentiment. The worry is that this will result in the state licensing denying licenses in order to prevent new gun stores or close current ones down. They are also requiring all sorts of things for gun stores and their employees like special training and individual licensing which will drive up cost of every employee at the gun store. This will likely drive small gun stores out of profitability and thus business.

On top of all of this it limits all Illinois residents to 9 transfers per year. If you buy 10 guns you are legally considered an unlicensed dealer and face significant fines and/or jail time. Imagine transferring a an estate with guns down to a child. "You can pick 9 guns of your dads collection...oh wait you already bought 2 this year? You can only pick 7 then."

As I said the Springfield and Rock River based lobbying group was opposing this, as they should, until the proposed legislation was changed to except them as manufacturers and some of the big box stores that they sell to. Then the lobbying group mysteriously dropped their opposition and became an observer which lead to the bill passing and having a significant chance of being signed into law.

This is the story as I understand it with reference articles below.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04...-for-carve-out/

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/0...picking-pieces/

Springfield has disabled their reviews on facebook but if you look at any post it is flooded with upset 2nd amendment supporters. Rock River just completely took down their facebook page.

What do you guys think?
 
Last edited:
While you shouldn't expect the companies to carry your water they also shouldnt expect your hard earned money when they dump the bucket on your head.

I say this as the newish owner of a SA 1911.

The NRA has been strangely silent about it.
 
Last edited:
After reading that link, it sounds like RRA and Springfield Armory are backpedaling trying to do damage control. Aren't Dennis Reese- CEO SA, Tom Reese ‎Co- chairman of the Board at SA, Chuck Larson Co-Owner of RRA and Jay Keller part of IFMA?
 
Originally Posted By: larrAfter reading that link, it sounds like RRA and Springfield Armory are backpedaling trying to do damage control. Aren't Dennis Reese- CEO SA, Tom Reese ‎Co- chairman of the Board at SA, Chuck Larson Co-Owner of RRA and Jay Keller part of IFMA?

Yes, SA and RRA got caught red-handed, so they're pushing the narrative that they had no idea what Keller was up to. The fact that the IFMA board consists of the top guys at BOTH companies tells me they were either completely asleep at the wheel, or they darn well knew what was going on and thought it was a good idea. I'm leaning toward the latter, because they literally have one lobbyist on their payroll. How the heck could they not know what he was up to?? This is a sad time for the residents of IL. If IFMA hadn't switched their stance on the bill, this whole thing could have died in the senate. We now have one big fight on our hands, and RRA and SA are to blame.
 
The thing that says it all to me is how long it took for them to release a statement about cutting ties with the lobbiest. I don't care how busy you are at the NRA show, if you are the CEO of a company and you hear that the ratings on your Facebook page had to be shut down because you were getting 80 1 star reviews an hour, you will take the time to read the articles and forums. If you were truly surprised at the action of the lobbiest you would come out and explain they went wild the same day! Its when you realize you got caught and that you need to come up with a strategy and a sacrificial lamb before you make any statements or actions.
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZVote for different people, and don't expect companies to carry your water.

Where is the NRA?

Here I agree completely. It's the NRA's job to fight anti gun legislation, not gun manufacturers. And where were all of the other pro gun groups? Gun Owners Of America, Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms, The Second Amendment Foundation, The Illinois State Rifle Association, along with all the rest?

If $100K from these 2 companies was enough grease to exempt all manufacturers from this legislation, (minus the lobbyist's cut), where was all of the funding from all of the Class 1 FFL holders in the state of Illinois to help fight this? There are literally thousands of them statewide. How much did they personally fork up to fight this legislation? My guess is a grand total of nothing. And now they're all sitting on the curb bitching and moaning about it. Too bad. Both Springfield and Rock River Arms put their money where their mouth was. If every Class 1 FFL holder in the state did the same thing, this would have went down to defeat. Greasing politicians is a businessman's way of life in Illinois. And as was said, if you want all of this anti gun legislation to stop, then elect different people. Don't blame gun manufacturers, or expect them to fight your political battles for you. That's pure crap.
 
Originally Posted By: billtOriginally Posted By: Tbone-AZVote for different people, and don't expect companies to carry your water.

Where is the NRA?

Here I agree completely. It's the NRA's job to fight anti gun legislation, not gun manufacturers. And where were all of the other pro gun groups? Gun Owners Of America, Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms, The Second Amendment Foundation, The Illinois State Rifle Association, along with all the rest?

If $100K from these 2 companies was enough grease to exempt all manufacturers from this legislation, (minus the lobbyist's cut), where was all of the funding from all of the Class 1 FFL holders in the state of Illinois to help fight this? There are literally thousands of them statewide. How much did they personally fork up to fight this legislation? My guess is a grand total of nothing. And now they're all sitting on the curb bitching and moaning about it. Too bad. Both Springfield and Rock River Arms put their money where their mouth was. If every Class 1 FFL holder in the state did the same thing, this would have went down to defeat. Greasing politicians is a businessman's way of life in Illinois. And as was said, if you want all of this anti gun legislation to stop, then elect different people. Don't blame gun manufacturers, or expect them to fight your political battles for you. That's pure crap.

Nobody asked RRA or SA to carry any water for us. They double crossed us all on their own. If you'd read all the info that's come out on the topic, you'd know that there's a good chance the bill would have died in the senate, if RRA, SA, and their paid lackey had just stayed the [beeep] out of it. Furthermore, you'd also know that IFMA made direct contributions to some of the most rabid anti-gun politicians in this state. Regardless of their intent, funding anyone with an anti-2A position is plenty justification for the sort of response they're getting. They made their bed. Now they get to lie in it.
 
Originally Posted By: cjclemensNobody asked RRA or SA to carry any water for us. They double crossed us all on their own. If you'd read all the info that's come out on the topic, you'd know that there's a good chance the bill would have died in the senate, if RRA, SA, and their paid lackey had just stayed the [beeep] out of it. Furthermore, you'd also know that IFMA made direct contributions to some of the most rabid anti-gun politicians in this state. Regardless of their intent, funding anyone with an anti-2A position is plenty justification for the sort of response they're getting. They made their bed. Now they get to lie in it.

They didn't "double cross" anyone. Everything you're putting forth is nothing but pure speculation on your part. "If this, then that". What are you going to do now, boycott them? Let's say you're successful, and run them both out of business. Which is the prime goal of any boycott. Are you going to celebrate that? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. These 2 companies had their businesses on the line. What did you have? They did what they had to do to survive in an unfriendly, anti gun political climate they did not create. It's foolish to blame them for Illinois's anti gun politicians, who were elected into office by the people. Let alone blaming them for your inabilities to fight them.
 
Originally Posted By: billtThey didn't "double cross" anyone.

They double crossed every law-abiding gun-owner in this state. Their lobby switched their stance from "oppose" to "neutral." Then, and only then, did the bill pass. Pretty obvious cause and effect, right there.

Everything you're putting forth is nothing but pure speculation on your part. "If this, then that".

Not hardly. There's plenty of info out there to make an informed decision on this matter.

What are you going to do now, boycott them?

Yes, I am.

Let's say you're successful, and run them both out of business. Which is the prime goal of any boycott. Are you going to celebrate that?

Sure. I might even bake a cake.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

How so? Other companies will take their place. Even better, the other manufacturers that see what happened to SA and RRA will likely stand up for the 2A in its entirety, not just to protect their own interest.

These 2 companies had their businesses on the line. What did you have?

My 2A rights are on the line, which trumps their profit margin.

They did what they had to do to survive in an unfriendly, anti gun political climate they did not create.

They say cockroaches can survive an atomic bomb. So what? Gun owners in IL didn't create the political climate here either. Chicago did. is that a good excuse for SA and RRA to take a dump on us?

It's foolish to blame them for Illinois's anti gun politicians, who were elected into office by the people.

I don't blame them for anti-gun politicians here in IL. I blame them for how they acted under pressure. If they really wanted to put their money where their mouth is, they should have bought a new facility and moved across the river. Instead, they took the low road and greased a few palms in Chicago, just to buy themselves a little temporary security.

Let alone blaming them for your inabilities to fight them.

I am a member of the NRA and the ISRA. I donate to other pro 2A organizations. Are my 2A rights less important than their profit margin, just because I cant afford to throw 10's of thousands of dollars at some politicians?

Oh, and in case you missed what I said in my last post, THEY DONATED MONEY TO ANTI-GUN CHICAGO DEMOCRATS, IN ORDER TO GET THEIR EXEMPTION FROM THIS BILL. That's all.

 
Originally Posted By: billt
They didn't "double cross" anyone. Everything you're putting forth is nothing but pure speculation on your part. "If this, then that". What are you going to do now, boycott them? Let's say you're successful, and run them both out of business. Which is the prime goal of any boycott. Are you going to celebrate that? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. These 2 companies had their businesses on the line. What did you have? They did what they had to do to survive in an unfriendly, anti gun political climate they did not create. It's foolish to blame them for Illinois's anti gun politicians, who were elected into office by the people. Let alone blaming them for your inabilities to fight them.

They are private companies working in a state that hates them.
I am sure that it’s not going to come as a surprise to anyone to hear that in these states you have to bribe and grease the wheels to even stay in business.
Consider that Anti’s in power are trying to make something pass that will in effect limit or at the very least impede your company’s ability to do business. Bribe, or donate, whatever you want to call it, and they will leave you alone so that you don’t have to shut down, or basically slow die. Yes, they gave money to alter the proposal to then get an exemption for themselves. Why would you want them to keep piling money on those that already support your position than give some to those that hate you and offer to soften if you do so. (don’t hate the company, hate the corrupt politician)
If that kind of thing bothers you, well stop electing people that end up in jail so much. Il has a wing just for all the Governors. But, it is still the reality of the business field everyone is facing. Those CEOs have hundreds of employee’s and a business to worry about. They didn’t propose the rules, they only found a way to avoid having it affect their business. There are thousands of pages in the tax and Federal regulations that are just like this. It is still the legislature that is setting these things up, writing them, and passing them. In IL. It’s just one more on a pile of already stupid laws that are just making it worse not better.

The blame is misplaced.
 
Originally Posted By: cjclemensIf they really wanted to put their money where their mouth is, they should have bought a new facility and moved across the river.

Your real good at spending other peoples money. Where is the $100K YOU put up???

Originally Posted By: cjclemensMy 2A rights are on the line, which trumps their profit margin.

Only in your opinion. And if you really feel that way, spend YOUR OWN MONEY. And stop whining about what they do with theirs. Your no different than all the other FFL holders in that state. All talk, but no action...... And even less money.... Just mouth. And you saw just how far that took you, didn't you?

Originally Posted By: cjclemensI cant afford to throw 10's of thousands of dollars at some politicians?

Then stop blaming people who can, that have a lot more to lose than you.
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZ......(don’t hate the company, hate the corrupt politician)......The blame is misplaced.

Again, I couldn't agree more.
 
Originally Posted By: billtOriginally Posted By: cjclemensIf they really wanted to put their money where their mouth is, they should have bought a new facility and moved across the river.

Your real good at spending other peoples money. Where is the $100K YOU put up???

I think I explained that, when I said I didn't have 10's of thousands of dollars to throw at politicians. I'm not saying SA and RRA didn't have the right to do what they did, I'm saying they're a bunch of scumbags for doing what they did. Magpul was faced with a similar situation, and they handled it quite differently, and no one is saying anything bad about Magpul.

Originally Posted By: cjclemensMy 2A rights are on the line, which trumps their profit margin.

Only in your opinion. And if you really feel that way, spend YOUR OWN MONEY.

If you read my last post, I said I do spend my own money.

And stop whining about what they do with theirs. Your no different than all the other FFL holders in that state.

I'm not whining about what they do with their money. They made a choice. I just happen to think it was a bad choice. Let's use another example: Is it my right to donate money to the local Nazi party? Of course it is. Is it a scumbag thing to do? You betcha. Is it also other peoples' right to criticize me for doing scumbag things with my money? Yes it is. Actions speak louder than words, and their actions (with their money and otherwise) have made it clear where they stand. FWIW, you seem awfully obsessed with the money part of this. The money itself isn't the entire issue - there are several principles that go along with it that you seem to be completely missing.

All talk, but no action...... And even less money.... Just mouth. And you saw just how far that took you, didn't you?

As I mentioned before, I donate, I'm a member, and I've attended some of the pro 2A rallies in the capital. I see exactly how far it took us - right to the point where a couple manufacturers used their bigger wallet and bigger mouth to sell out their own customers here in IL. That's why so many of us are so disappointed in them.

Originally Posted By: cjclemensI cant afford to throw 10's of thousands of dollars at some politicians?

Then stop blaming people who can, that have a lot more to lose than you.

I'm not blaming people who can. I'm blaming people who could have, but didn't. There is a big difference. They do have a lot to lose financially, but I still believe our 2A rights are far bigger and more important. After all, if we lose those rights altogether, who's gonna be around to buy SA's products (besides El Salvador)?



There's obviously a disconnect here. There's a lot of info out on this, and it seems you've decided to put your blinders on, anyway. It doesn't really seem like you're even reading my posts entirely, let alone comprehend them. It could also be that you live in a gun-friendly state, so its not like you've ever had to fight to hold onto your rights. Or maybe its because you're a RRA or SA fanboy, which is totally fine - keep on buying their products. You have every right to.

Fortunately, there are enough people, especially here in IL, who have taken the time to get informed in the issue and have read the writing on the wall. Since we're obviously not on the same page and probably never will be, I'll just say respectfully, I disagree with you and leave it at that. Unless more info comes to light to show me I'm wrong, my mind is made up on this matter. You're not gonna change my mind, and I'm not gonna change yours, so we should probably leave it at that.
 
IF and only IF, all the shooting sports enthusiast could band together??

In AZ, we vote out those that pull this non-sense. They just passed and signed in a bill that prevents the requirement for back ground checks for private sales.

Sadly there is a backwards mess in the state of Ill. but, that doesn't mean that it has to rule the state. Cities can do as they wish. But, not all of the representative come from the city. There are hundreds of thousands of hunters and fishermen in that state. Ironically it appears some must be voting for dummycrats.

Time to band together, raise money, and vote out the dummies and overrun them in that state legislature.

We have enclaves of libtards here too, but we drown them out and it stops their stupidity and limits it to idea's and bloviating. Seems like in a time where dummycrats have lost record numbers of seats in the states, it's time for the hunting/shooting communities to start really pushing to make an impact on the direction.

There is no shortage of ways to raise money in the Hunting/fishing sports to then support those that would replace those taking away your rights.

I really wish you the best, To all that live in these states that are doing this garbage. If your not going to move, that is about all you have left if you want to be able to keep owning guns at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZIF and only IF, all the shooting sports enthusiast could band together??

In AZ, we vote out those that pull this non-sense. They just passed and signed in a bill that prevents the requirement for back ground checks for private sales.

Sadly there is a backwards mess in the state of Ill. but, that doesn't mean that it has to rule the state. Cities can do as they wish. But, not all of the representative come from the city. There are hundreds of thousands of hunters and fishermen in that state. Ironically it appears some must be voting for dummycrats.

Time to band together, raise money, and vote out the dummies and overrun them in that state legislature.

We have enclaves of libtards here too, but we drown them out and it stops their stupidity and limits it to idea's and bloviating. Seems like in a time where dummycrats have lost record numbers of seats in the states, it's time for the hunting/shooting communities to start really pushing to make an impact on the direction.

There is no shortage of ways to raise money in the Hunting/fishing sports to then support those that would replace those taking away your rights.

I really wish you the best, To all that live in these states that are doing this garbage. If your not going to move, that is about all you have left if you want to be able to keep owning guns at all.

You say those things, as if you think we aren't trying to do so. Here's a link to a map of Illinois legislative districts. If you really want to be informed and understand the scale of the problem we face, please take a look at it.

Illinois Legislative Districts

Now, because the state senate is more balanced between rural and urban areas, stupid anti-gun legislation usually dies right there. However, thanks to RRA and SA's meddling, one slipped by. This is a huge problem because the house, determined by population, is overwhelmingly controlled by Chicago Dems.

Here are a few more bits of info for you: The population of Illinois is almost 13 million. Cook county alone is over 5 million. The whole Chicago metropolitan area is about 9.5 million. That means about 74% of Illinois' population lives in Cook county and the 5 collar counties around it. You think you have "enclaves of libtards"? Well, we have one big one. For what its worth, considering the incredible odds we face, I think its pretty darn amazing we have managed to hold our ground as long as we have.
 
Originally Posted By: cjclemensIt could also be that you live in a gun-friendly state, so its not like you've ever had to fight to hold onto your rights. Or maybe its because you're a RRA or SA fanboy, which is totally fine - keep on buying their products. You have every right to.

Stop. Just stop. I was born and raised in Illinois. I lived 39 years of my life there, (1952-1991). It was a legislative and over taxed, socialist, Democratic stink hole when I was there. It's obviously only gotten worse. So don't even get me started about, "fighting to hold on to my rights". Yes, I now live in a gun friendly state, because that's where I wanted to live. It wasn't an easy task to risk everything and move 2,000 miles, clear across the country with no employment lined up. But it was well worth it. Illinois is never going to change, any more than California is. It's gone far beyond the point of no return, and will continue to worsen until nothing is left.

And spare me all of the "fanboy" nonsense. I'm a "fanboy" of every gun manufacturer in this country. I don't give a rats a$$ where they're from. And if you had any sense, you would be as well. They are under constant assault from legislators, as well as over zealous, sue crazy lawyers. It's not an easy business to make a profit and survive in. And I give Springfield and Rock River Arms credit for staying the course, spending their money, and fighting to survive in a political climate that wants them dead and gone. And now they've got guys like you out to cut their throats. And that, according to you, is supposed to be something to celebrate? Are you kidding me? Talk about the definition of stupidity! As was said, you are blaming the wrong people. Wake Up! They're not "scumbags". The idiots your liberal Democratic, socialist neighbors voted into office are. They are the one's who deserve to be on the receiving end of this big $h!t storm you just can't wait to create..... Not the gun manufacturers!
 
Originally Posted By: cjclemens Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZ
I really wish you the best, to all that live in these states that are doing this garbage. If you’re not going to move, that is about all you have left if you want to be able to keep owning guns at all.

Here's a link to a map of Illinois legislative districts. If you really want to be informed and understand the scale of the problem we face, please take a look at it.
Here are a few more bits of info for you: The population of Illinois is almost 13 million. Cook county alone is over 5 million. The whole Chicago metropolitan area is about 9.5 million. That means about 74% of Illinois' population lives in Cook county and the 5 collar counties around it. You think you have "enclaves of libtards"? Well, we have one big one. For what its worth, considering the incredible odds we face, I think its pretty darn amazing we have managed to hold our ground as long as we have.

Yep, a daily fight sucks, but the misconceptions about seeing something on the internet is that you can be lulled into thinking that others don’t know your pain.
I work in the inner loop. I watched game 7 at Monk’s bar there, and the rally the following day from my office window that looks toward the park. I work at a major bank next to the Chicago fed. I hate Chicago, and refused to live there. I work remotely from the Tempe, AZ location. I vote with my feet, write checks for thousands to those that support my interests. I have raised and worked to raise money for those that will make the good fight, and it’s a daily struggle.
I also walked the streets, knocked on doors and attended events to get rid of McCain in AZ with K. Ward. It didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen next time. Maybe holding pancake breakfasts, shoots, turkey shoots, coyote contests, fishing contests, egg shoots, and the such where 75% of the pot it donated to those running against the dems in purple areas. It’s called bundling and fund raisers, completely legal, Dems do it, and it’s time for the GOP team to be better at doing the same everywhere, but specifically in the places like Ill.
 
Originally Posted By: billtOriginally Posted By: cjclemensIt could also be that you live in a gun-friendly state, so its not like you've ever had to fight to hold onto your rights. Or maybe its because you're a RRA or SA fanboy, which is totally fine - keep on buying their products. You have every right to.

Stop. Just stop. I was born and raised in Illinois. I lived 39 years of my life there, (1952-1991). It was a legislative and over taxed, socialist, Democratic stink hole when I was there. It's obviously only gotten worse. So don't even get me started about, "fighting to hold on to my rights". Yes, I now live in a gun friendly state, because that's where I wanted to live. It wasn't an easy task to risk everything and move 2,000 miles, clear across the country with no employment lined up. But it was well worth it. Illinois is never going to change, any more than California is. It's gone far beyond the point of no return, and will continue to worsen until nothing is left.

Well, good for you. You got out while the getting was good. I suppose we should all do the same, but that's not really a realistic option for all of us. On the other hand, the early 90's was the last time Dems and the GOP were on relatively equal footing in the IL legislature. So, maybe you don't really know what its like to fight for what you have left. Or, at the very least, you seem to have forgotten about it in the last 25 years. It may be a losing battle, but I'm here to the end.

And spare me all of the "fanboy" nonsense. I'm a "fanboy" of every gun manufacturer in this country. I don't give a rats a$$ where they're from. And if you had any sense, you would be as well.

I'm a fan of, and will support those manufacturers that make a quality product and those that don't act in a manner that is detrimental to our 2A rights, whether it be on a state or federal level.

They are under constant assault from legislators, as well as over zealous, sue crazy lawyers. It's not an easy business to make a profit and survive in. And I give Springfield and Rock River Arms credit for staying the course, spending their money, and fighting to survive in a political climate that wants them dead and gone.

Gun owners and dealers here in IL have the same black cloud hanging over all of our heads. Does that make it right for one group to screw another, just to secure our own position?

And now they've got guys like you out to cut their throats. And that, according to you, is supposed to be something to celebrate?

I wasn't really planning to celebrate anything. You suggested it, and honestly it sounded like a good idea. Here's the thing -Ruger and S&W both got themselves involved in stupid political debacles as well. It hurt them financially, but they survived and they learned their lessons. There's a pretty good chance RRA and SA will survive this. If they do, they'll be much better for it. If not, I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Are you kidding me? Talk about the definition of stupidity! As was said, you are blaming the wrong people. Wake Up! They're not "scumbags". The idiots your liberal Democratic, socialist neighbors voted into office are. They are the one's who deserve to be on the receiving end of this big $h!t storm you just can't wait to create..... Not the gun manufacturers!

I'd never kid you. I don't think its stupid at all. I think its great to let manufacturers know that we're all watching and listening, and that we hold them to a high standard of conduct. Again, (as I've mentioned many times), I don't blame SA or RRA for the situation we're all in here. They made a decision that had a detrimental outcome for dealers and gun owners in IL and for that they should be punished. Now, as far as the actual piece of legislation, I do blame my liberal neighbors and their elected officials.

 
Back
Top