Whats up guys, does anyone else have problems with repeating 1/2in or less groups out of your ar? I have a shilen 1×8r 20in that i developed a 50g vmax with 25g of h322 @ 3250fps (hardly any crimp) that shot 1/2 or less and also 69g sierra matchkings factory federal gold match and now its up to one inch on a good day. My buddy also has a wilson combat that will print less then 1/2in and then other days 1 to 1 1/2 inch. All at 100yds. Both have geissele ssa-e triggers.. im running a leupold vxr and he has a vortex hs-t. I usually shoot my ars fouled and have tried cleaning after every group. He always shoots his clean and has tried shooting fouled. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
Repeated accuracy
- Thread starter tjromo84
- Start date
Go back and shoot the same load the next time you have time. Have you shot that load after your initial load work up? I'm thinking it could just be an bad day on the trigger if it has shot 1/2" more then once remember your human it happens. How many rounds are down the barrels? Also what distance were you shooting and what was the wind doing? But I'm guessing if it's a proven load it was proably human error.
I have about 300 or 400 down the shilen and about 200 out of the Wilson. All groups were at 100yds but the benches have been different also some from prone with bipods and sandbags. Not sure about the wind but it has been in the 40°s-50°'s outside the last time i had a great group was in the low 70°s with more humidity. These are our night rifles so they are still good enough but it drives me crazy because i know what it can do. I do have access to an indoor 100yd range but for some reason i shoot better at the outdoor ranges.
Coyotejunki
Well-known member
Quote:Whats up guys, does anyone else have problems with repeating 1/2in or less groups out of your ar?
uh, yes I do
uh, yes I do
steve garrett
Active member
Yes, imo it's part of the nature of the ar platform. It's not a bolt gun nor will it replace a bolt gun for accuracy. My 16 inch hbar rra barrel does seem to be the most consistent out of all the barrels I have used.
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I'm like you in that I built using premium parts (Krieger barrels in my case) and hand load with best components. Actually got in 3/8" @100yds. Had the same experience as you in that groups would open up with proven setups. Still very huntable but I went in search of a reason why not 1/2" or better all the time. In my case there turned out to be several.
weather: to hot (changed powder burn), wind ( I am a 50 yd 22 rimfire benchrest shooter and wind is a big destroyer of groups)
me: some days I could not focus resulting in loss of discipline.
breath control, trigger control (I have the same great triggers as you, but, I've found that I have to hold the trigger back until everything has stopped moving and it is hard for me to do so sometimes.
weather: to hot (changed powder burn), wind ( I am a 50 yd 22 rimfire benchrest shooter and wind is a big destroyer of groups)
me: some days I could not focus resulting in loss of discipline.
breath control, trigger control (I have the same great triggers as you, but, I've found that I have to hold the trigger back until everything has stopped moving and it is hard for me to do so sometimes.
204 AR
Well-known member
You said it, consistency is the toughest thing to get. The most frustrating case was my 25 wssm Dtech. On some days it was unreal. The next day would throw 1.5" groups. Finally noticed that under 40 degrees my load didn't hold together. I think the guys that document every detail of their load, weather conditions, shooting set-up, etc have a big advantage on figuring this type of stuff out. I'm too lazy and not anal enough about it, but I do notice trends eventually.
Yeah i usually come up with loads durring he summer when its woodchuck season, guess i need a winter load also. I do keep all groups when trying different load combos cut and taped to an index card with a guess of the outside temp. Also i might try loading one at a time just to see if it helps on the bench
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steve garrett
Active member
I think people questioning their shooting ability is not the cause. I think even a pretty inexperienced shooter can shoot .5" groups with a rifle that shoots in the 2's. I finally built a bolt gun that is capable of the 2's and found that even shots I didn't feel that great about all piled into the group. in most cases I don't think its lack of shooting skill. I think its just the nature of the rifle and in particular the ar 15 itself.
steve garrett
Active member
Originally Posted By: AnkenyQuote:I think even a pretty inexperienced shooter can shoot .5" groups with a rifle that shoots in the 2's. That hasn't been my experience. Your green shooters are better than mine.
Owning a rifle that shoots that way good will tell you a lot. In particular if your scope sucks or not
Owning a rifle that shoots that way good will tell you a lot. In particular if your scope sucks or not
Nonnieselman
New member
Ive seen parallax issues cause many problems. Also how you hold the rifle, how much pressure your putting on cheekweld. It could be time to clean the barrel? Temp change causing powder burn to change. Have you ran the loads over the chrono?
Ive got a 20" ARP 223 Wylde barrel on an AR that will do 10 rounds under 5/8". Even changed loads from 73gr ELDM to 75gr AMAX. The AMAX shot a little under 3/4" 10 shots at 100 yards but went to 18" at 600 yards. It shoots 50gr Nosler BT and 53gr VMAX great all the time. But it takes alot of practice with an AR to get consistency. Some like the bipod to be loaded heavy, some will go all over the place with a heavy load on it. Some like free recoil to shoot the best. How much pressure are you putting on the grip?
I found that pulling straight back just a little to hold it into my shoulder with no torque in the grip with very very light pressure on the cheekweld shot the best the most consistent.
Tuned adjustable gas block helped a little with the flyers also.
Ive got a 20" ARP 223 Wylde barrel on an AR that will do 10 rounds under 5/8". Even changed loads from 73gr ELDM to 75gr AMAX. The AMAX shot a little under 3/4" 10 shots at 100 yards but went to 18" at 600 yards. It shoots 50gr Nosler BT and 53gr VMAX great all the time. But it takes alot of practice with an AR to get consistency. Some like the bipod to be loaded heavy, some will go all over the place with a heavy load on it. Some like free recoil to shoot the best. How much pressure are you putting on the grip?
I found that pulling straight back just a little to hold it into my shoulder with no torque in the grip with very very light pressure on the cheekweld shot the best the most consistent.
Tuned adjustable gas block helped a little with the flyers also.
Widow maker 223
Active member
Shooting prone your body should be dead weight loading the bi pod. Zero muscular tension through out the body, head rested on the stock, zero muscular neck tension. Only tension or pressure you should feel is in your trigger finger. Driving a gas gun is the same as a bolt gun. Proper NPA is very important also.
The gun and load is far more repeatable than most shooters. Getting a gas gun to shoot less than 1/2" consistantly takes consistancy from all of the above.
The gun and load is far more repeatable than most shooters. Getting a gas gun to shoot less than 1/2" consistantly takes consistancy from all of the above.
Widow maker 223
Active member
Originally Posted By: KAZWM, do you hold the trigger back until after the rifle has completed the shot? I have found it to be important in my results. Regards
Yes thats very important for follow through. I catch my buddies tapping the trigger and letting off at the shot. Thats a no no. With an AR I shoot the best with the shoulders square to the rifle, both elbows in the same position out to the sides. Rifle inline with the spine. With the way the AR is set up the bottom of the buttstock sits a little higher in the shoulder than a bolt gun. Proper cheek rest hight is important also. Once set up behind the gun get up on your elbows with the weight of your body pushing into the bi pod slightly, then slide your eblows to the side bringing your chest to the ground, slide your bag under the gun, i like to bury it in.. Now to set up your NPA. with proper natural point of aim the gun will sit on target without having to be musled and held on target. "Remember zero muscular tension" close your eyes fully relax your whole body. Take a couple breaths, open your eyes, the crosshairs should still be on target. If they are off you need to rebuild your position. I like the buttstock buried in my rear bag. I made a rear bag thats about 3.5" x 3.5" x 6" tall. Its the right height for me, keeping a low position helps shooting prone, more body contact with the ground to help manage recoil.
Breathing- the shot should be sent at the natural respiratory pause. Usually a 1-4second window. The old holding half a lung full of air is hard to make repeatable, and also moves the chest around a lot.
Only thing I find harder to shooting a gas gun vs. a bolt gun is having the crosshairs settle back on target after the shot. Especially with a gasser that is over gassed. My brother bought a 16" Vision Defence carbine recently. It was way over gassed. I pulled the gas block and made it adjustable with a locking set screw to lock down the adjusting screw. That really helped with the muzzle jump. The BCG recirocating in a gas gun doesnt help either. A longer barrel with a toned down gas system helps mitigate the muzzle jump.
Yes thats very important for follow through. I catch my buddies tapping the trigger and letting off at the shot. Thats a no no. With an AR I shoot the best with the shoulders square to the rifle, both elbows in the same position out to the sides. Rifle inline with the spine. With the way the AR is set up the bottom of the buttstock sits a little higher in the shoulder than a bolt gun. Proper cheek rest hight is important also. Once set up behind the gun get up on your elbows with the weight of your body pushing into the bi pod slightly, then slide your eblows to the side bringing your chest to the ground, slide your bag under the gun, i like to bury it in.. Now to set up your NPA. with proper natural point of aim the gun will sit on target without having to be musled and held on target. "Remember zero muscular tension" close your eyes fully relax your whole body. Take a couple breaths, open your eyes, the crosshairs should still be on target. If they are off you need to rebuild your position. I like the buttstock buried in my rear bag. I made a rear bag thats about 3.5" x 3.5" x 6" tall. Its the right height for me, keeping a low position helps shooting prone, more body contact with the ground to help manage recoil.
Breathing- the shot should be sent at the natural respiratory pause. Usually a 1-4second window. The old holding half a lung full of air is hard to make repeatable, and also moves the chest around a lot.
Only thing I find harder to shooting a gas gun vs. a bolt gun is having the crosshairs settle back on target after the shot. Especially with a gasser that is over gassed. My brother bought a 16" Vision Defence carbine recently. It was way over gassed. I pulled the gas block and made it adjustable with a locking set screw to lock down the adjusting screw. That really helped with the muzzle jump. The BCG recirocating in a gas gun doesnt help either. A longer barrel with a toned down gas system helps mitigate the muzzle jump.