Identification range?

6

6724

New member
I see in some threads that guys say that with a thermal a positive ID on a coyote beyond 200 yards is not happening. That for a positive ID you need night vision.
But, positive ID is a very subjective thing. Is positive ID being able to tell the difference between a coyote and a domestic dog? or the difference between a coyote and a fox? or is it between a coyote and a deer?
Is a person identifiable from an elk at 1000 yards? or will the thermal even pick up anything? How far can a good one pick up a person?
 
A lot depends on the climate and relative humidity and the diurnal thermal emissivity of objects, which is different each night and constantly changing throughout the night, what was good at 10PM and now sux at 2PM and vice versa is why it is never the same. The quality of the germanium lens, its size and lens stop is also paramount in what thermal emissions make it to the micro bolometer thermal resistors.
 
Originally Posted By: 6724I see in some threads that guys say that with a thermal a positive ID on a coyote beyond 200 yards is not happening. That for a positive ID you need night vision.
But, positive ID is a very subjective thing. Is positive ID being able to tell the difference between a coyote and a domestic dog? or the difference between a coyote and a fox? or is it between a coyote and a deer?

Positive ID is only subjective if you think it is. Animals viewed with thermal sometimes are standing at odd angles, or partially blocked by foliage. Head up or head down??.....the animal looks completely different in different positions. As Skypup noted the ambient conditions can have a big effect on thermal performance also.

Positive ID is just what it says..... You positively know what animal you are looking at. Other factors weigh in also. Probably not a big deal to shoot a fox instead of a coyote most of the time......except in FL there is no season on foxes so if you shoot a fox by mistake you just broke the law. Coyote vs canine?.... You might have just shot the landowners farm dog. A Black bear cub with his head down.....looks just like a hog and around here if you shoot one of those you're gonna get put under the jail.

I scanned a target in a low area on a small dam one night and decided to just turn off my scanner and stalk the target. At about 50 yards I set my scope on my tripod and just about messed up my britches. I was 50 yards from what appeared to be a big back bear and there are several that show up on this property. I just sort of froze trying to figure out my next move and kept watching.......after a few minutes I noticed movement and then the target separated.......2 large boars feeding on the dam. The way their outlines lined up they looked just like a big bear.

Thermal is great technology but you have to realize it has it's limitations and you have to decide for yourself if t's the best choice for your hunting situation. The longer the range the bigger the lens needed for ID and that's a big jump in cost also.




 
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Yeah, we have bears here too and I don't know how many times I have stalked up to bedded down deer, but it is in the hundreds.
 
Some great info here. I'd also like to add the way an animal moves can be an indicator as well. Tonight I watched a family of 7 raccoons from my back porch 225-250 yards away with the IR Defense PatrolXR. I can say with 100 percent surety they were raccoons. That's positive ID. I knew they were raccoons by their size, their shape and the way they moved. Everything about them helped me ID them positively. Now, if I would've had the regular IR Defense Patrol, I only would've seen heat signatures. At that distance, there's simply no way I would've known what the heat signitures where without getting much closer. Knowing your quarry and knowing your gear is muy importanto!
 
can anyone tell me at what approximate distance with a $10k thermal can you determine a coyote from a beef calf? or a person from an elk? I am not concerned with seeing the collar on a domestic dog. From the videos that i have seen, and the devices i have looked through, it seems that determining what you are looking at would be far better than people are saying. my guess is that if the devices would allow an ID on a coyote sized animal at 250 yards, that people would claim 400 yards. but so far everyone says under 250 yards for a positive id, so that makes me think that it is probably much less than that.
 
I will through in my .02, and let the "pro's" beat up on me, lol.

I bought my first thermal last January, and everybody told me I was looking at getting positive ID below 200, some even said 100.

I have zero issue's ID'ing past 500 yards. Last year I had a pack of coyotes run in and break through the treeline about 600 yards from me, and I had zero issues knowing it was coyotes heading my way. I was absolutely certain. One of my properties I hunt, spans to 600 yards before it hits the tree line, I watch raccoons, deer, and coyotes run out of that tree line all the time.

Obviously the closer they get, the better the image. I know a lot of people give examples of like animals (bear cub vs hog), I don't have animals like that where I live. When I hunt, all I see are coons, coyotes, and deer. So being able to distinguish between what I'm looking at is easy. Maybe I would have a different point of view if I lived in those states.

I will also make another statement, in no way shape or form will I take a 500 yard shot on an animal. I don't posses those skills to make accurate shots that far. Just want to make that statement before people jump on me for shooting that far when they don't think I can ID that far. I usually won't shoot past 200, not because I can't ID further, because I want to be able to put a lethal shot on the animal I am shooting and not just wounding it.
 
Personally with my old eyes I can tell the difference between a full grown cow and something Small but I cannot really tell what the small thing is, i.e. like a calf, coyote, deer or dog at maybe 200 yds but this is Shape and movement only not detailed and I won't shoot one at that distance. I need to stalk within 100 yds to tell the difference of a calf, coyote or hog and again it's not detailed, mainly movement and overall shape. To tell the difference of a dog and coyote in detail I need to be at 50 Yards.

I am new to this and I can see my ability to ID an animal is getting better with time on the scope and experience. Also it can depend heavily on the topography you hunt. On cut hay fields I can see detail amazing well, over 200 in many cases but in fields of uncut hay I can only see a blob of something. That blob could be anything hot so I have to stalk in closer, how much closer to ID, sometimes less than 35 yards before I'm happy I know what I'm shooting.

You said 10k thermal and mine was only 7.5k
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. Would I make the purchase again? Not sure. I feel certain that I would not be able to see these animals in total darkness with out the thermal, I also think NV would miss more of these animals as well, but I must admit I was expecting more detail thru such an expensive scope. I'm using an IR Hunter Mark iii. I hope this was a detailed enough response to help u.
 
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I for sure IDed two coyotes at about 400 the other night with my 42mm 640 armasight. That said it was in an totally bare field and in an area where dogs wouldn't be and they were moving and the weather was perfect. And they were good size coyotes.
 
I almost never take a nighttime shot at over a hundred or hundred fifty yards anyway so I typically get plenty close for positive ID through my PVS-14 anyway if there is any question.
 
Just for full disclosure, I have another scope on the way from the manufacturer because I'm not happy with the detailed images I'm seeing thru my current scope. I'm going to compare them side by side. I also live in an area where 100% humidity is the norm during the summer months and I've been told that can affect the picture I'm seeing. Although how much effect it has I don't know.
 
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Not sure if this helps at all, but I run a simrad on my night rig with a PVS14 to scan. A couple months ago we were calling and partner called out a double on a hard charge 500-600 out. He gave me a location, and by time I was turned and on them they were roughly 400 yards or so. By that time we were immediately able to tell they were domestic. Body size, posture, and tails were dead give aways. By time they were at 300yds and closing it was unmistakable.

I have not hunted with thermal so I have no field experience to speak of there. However I did get a chance to try out an IR repear (I believe) . It was the clearest thing ive ever looked through. I am unsure on distance, but we were looking at a group of cows at a LOOOOOOONNNNG way off. way over 1000 yards, and there was no question what I was looking at. Again, I understand there are different scenarios that effect performance, but it was wild to see.
 
ID'ing with thermal depends largely on experience and equipment. A man that hunts 4-5 nights a week with thermal that is using quality products like the Ir defense mk3 60mm or the patrol xr is going to be able to identify animals at greater ranges versus an unexpericed night hunter with a flir ps32. However, i2 is still recommended for positive id on animals.
 
In my opinion hours of experience is a big part of the equation.
These are a few images showing the various detail from I2 and thermal devices. Some of you guys may not have seen them.




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Originally Posted By: 6724can anyone tell me at what approximate distance with a $10k thermal can you determine a coyote from a beef calf? or a person from an elk? I am not concerned with seeing the collar on a domestic dog. From the videos that i have seen, and the devices i have looked through, it seems that determining what you are looking at would be far better than people are saying. my guess is that if the devices would allow an ID on a coyote sized animal at 250 yards, that people would claim 400 yards. but so far everyone says under 250 yards for a positive id, so that makes me think that it is probably much less than that.


The best way to find out is to rent the unit you are interested in and take it out in the field.

$10k will buy you an IRD 60mm Mark III. It will give you a lot of range but your FOV will only be around 7 degrees.

http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/Rentals-s/1820.htm
 
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Even the best thermal spotter in the world IMHO, the new IRD Patrol XR which is da bomb at $8495 (https://tnvc.com/shop/ir-patrol-xr-extended-range-thermal-monocular/), does not hold a candle to a good Gen 3 NV rifle scope in regards to PID...Not even close for seeing true image details of a target.

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I mean when I can see a human being's nose and facial features at 100 yards with no issue and this is a crappy still pic, is a good clue how much detail is seen with normal NV stuff. I can still facial ID at 200 with a good I^2 NV scope.

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I get it what thermal can do, I own so many pieces but as I mentioned, when it comes down to detailed clarity for ID'ing, NV is still king.

I wish I could find a pic from many years ago I took when a hawk landed on the 200 yard steel target you see in the background. Yes I could easily distinguish it was an actual hawk. There's NOT a commercial non cooled array thermal that can do this. Notta one. Just saying...
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