.223 not enough for coyotes. makes me laugh.

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SlickerThanSnot

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there is a discussion on another board about the 223 being a good round for coyotes. one of the ill informed goof balls writes this

"out here, the 223 is marginal?
There should be a rule against those machineguns! I'm not saying you can't have one, you know, in case Black Lives Matter breaks down your front door, but they seem completely inappropriate in the sporting fields.

What makes a grown man want to play soldier with the scary military weapon? I hardly ever use the word. "weapon" in connection with any hunting application, but it is what it is."

think the guy ^^^^lives in california. must be some big bad coyotes there. guess that kind of explains his liberal attitude towards ar15 rifles too. what a douche.

 
Slicker, the manager of the shop I use to work at told a guy the other day that the 223 was not a big enough caliber to deer hunt with. I'm thinking, its big enough to kill a grown man but not big enough to kill a deer?????? Now its not enough gun for a coyote?? Hmmm! Makes a guy wonder where they get their information from.
 
Funny, aint it?

I still remember a famous gun writer from Salmon Idaho that declared that rifle rounds such as the 7 mag and the 30-06 as being marginal for deer. He used on occasion a .378 Weatherby for pronghorn hunting. Just one of those that bigger is always better crowd that one sees fewer of these days.
 


when you factor in the 'average' deer hunter... i agree.. 223 isnt enough gun.

i'm talking about all the yoohoo's who gets their gun out to go deer hunting a week before season, dust it off, goes to the range and shoots a box of shells to make sure he can put most of them into a dinner plate sized target and thats probably the only time they fire their guns for the year besides blasting away at deer out in the field (and probably missing horribly most of the time) needs more gun.

the platform its fired out of has nothing to do with it- weather an AR or a bolt gun, or whatever... for many hunters who cant do precise shot placement... they do need more gun.



in the hands of a capable shooter with good ammo selection, i'm very comfortable that the 223 is a great deer cartridge. as a buddy of mine says - there's only one degree of dead.

but good shot placement is going to be a lot more critical with a smaller caliber like 223/5.56

and lets be honest with each other here... the % of hunters who also are very capable shooters is a relatively TINY number compared to the total that ventures out in the field every fall.
 
The subject of the post is indeed a dipsh*t, no doubt.

I do agree with him about the 223 not being enough for coyotes though.... Although it's one of my favorite deer guns. The rationale (and believe me it's rational) lies with the fact that I'm not going to wait on a coyote to stop moving, not going to hesitate if they hold up at distance and frankly not worried at all about an "ethical" shot.... Just trying to get them down as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Deer, on the other hand, I would never take a chance on wounding. I wait for a great shot opportunity and don't shoot if I can't get it.

I've heard that old shot placement saying, and I couldn't agree more when it comes to game, but coyotes...? Absolutely not. Waiting on broadside standing shots is ridiculous. I do all I can to stop them, but when they get inside 150 yards they're gonna eat a bullet running or not.

So, will it kill them with good shot placement? Yes, every time.

Can anyone on planet earth guarantee perfect shot placement on swift moving targets or at unknown ranges. Of course not....


Not defending the guy, but he's not all wrong either.
 
Originally Posted By: Plant.One

when you factor in the 'average' deer hunter... i agree.. 223 isnt enough gun.

i'm talking about all the yoohoo's who gets their gun out to go deer hunting a week before season, dust it off, goes to the range and shoots a box of shells to make sure he can put most of them into a dinner plate sized target and thats probably the only time they fire their guns for the year besides blasting away at deer out in the field (and probably missing horribly most of the time) needs more gun.

the platform its fired out of has nothing to do with it- weather an AR or a bolt gun, or whatever... for many hunters who cant do precise shot placement... they do need more gun.



in the hands of a capable shooter with good ammo selection, i'm very comfortable that the 223 is a great deer cartridge. as a buddy of mine says - there's only one degree of dead.

but good shot placement is going to be a lot more critical with a smaller caliber like 223/5.56

and lets be honest with each other here... the % of hunters who also are very capable shooters is a relatively TINY number compared to the total that ventures out in the field every fall.

Yep
 
Nope...a .223 caliber rifle isn't nearly enough.
That's why so many predator callers use it.

From the quote, I would say that the guy who originally wrote that...probably thinks that the ONLY rifles that are .223 caliber, are ARs (ya know...those BAD, BAD "machine guns".)
That terminology...calling them "machine guns"...tells me that the guy seriously knows squat about guns. Although I wasn't in the military, I do know several people who were, or are. And not a single one of them called the military version of the AR, a "machine gun".
But then again, what I call "machine guns", are the old Thompson (Tommy gun); the Uzi; and anything that is belt fed.
So maybe I'm the one who doesn't know squat about guns.
 
Originally Posted By: Plant.One

and lets be honest with each other here... the % of hunters who also are very capable shooters is a relatively TINY number compared to the total that ventures out in the field every fall.



OK, I can agree on this.
 
I wont be shooting a deer with 223 ever again unless I'm really hungry, there are a lot better options. Coyotes though, never had a problem.
 
Originally Posted By: CZ527

I do agree with him about the 223 not being enough for coyotes though.... Although it's one of my favorite deer guns. The rationale (and believe me it's rational) lies with the fact that I'm not going to wait on a coyote to stop moving, not going to hesitate if they hold up at distance and frankly not worried at all about an "ethical" shot.... Just trying to get them down as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Deer, on the other hand, I would never take a chance on wounding. I wait for a great shot opportunity and don't shoot if I can't get it.

I've heard that old shot placement saying, and I couldn't agree more when it comes to game, but coyotes...? Absolutely not. Waiting on broadside standing shots is ridiculous. I do all I can to stop them, but when they get inside 150 yards they're gonna eat a bullet running or not.






Sir, as I do not know you personally, I will not get into a debate with you.
And, trust me...I'm neither trying to be disrepectful...nor stir any pot here.

But, I do find your comment fascinating.
Maybe it's just me, and the respect I have for any animal.
But, personally, I see no reason to take any less of an ethical shot on a coyote, than I would on a deer.
confused.gif

And I haven't (by any means) always waited for a broadside shot.
I have taken plenty of coyotes down in just about any angle possible.
But, yes, I do wait for what I feel is the most ethical shot opportunity.
For me, I hate "wounding" a coyote, just as much as I hate "wounding" a deer.
Shots at a 150 yd coyote...I've taken them, yes. But only if I had no other choice.
Since the majority of the coyotes I have called since 1995 (several hundred), have been taken at less than 75 yds, I always try my best to get them to commit to coming closer than 150 yds.
And, a coyote who's going faster than a slow lope...unless it's already been hit, and is bugging out...any that's going faster than that, get a pass normally. Simply because I don't need to kill one THAT bad...unless a landowner had been having trouble & asked me to take care of the issue.
IMHO, if that running coyote comes to my calling...and leaves without being shot at...there's a very good chance that I can come back and get him/her later....and maybe it won't only offer a running shot. Maybe it will stop next time.
But, like I say, that is just what I do.

Please have a nice day, sir. And good hunting to you!!!
cool.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Plant.One

when you factor in the 'average' deer hunter... i agree.. 223 isnt enough gun.

i'm talking about all the yoohoo's who gets their gun out to go deer hunting a week before season, dust it off, goes to the range and shoots a box of shells to make sure he can put most of them into a dinner plate sized target and thats probably the only time they fire their guns for the year besides blasting away at deer out in the field (and probably missing horribly most of the time) needs more gun.

the platform its fired out of has nothing to do with it- weather an AR or a bolt gun, or whatever... for many hunters who cant do precise shot placement... they do need more gun.



in the hands of a capable shooter with good ammo selection, i'm very comfortable that the 223 is a great deer cartridge. as a buddy of mine says - there's only one degree of dead.

but good shot placement is going to be a lot more critical with a smaller caliber like 223/5.56

and lets be honest with each other here... the % of hunters who also are very capable shooters is a relatively TINY number compared to the total that ventures out in the field every fall.


Not to argue either but a "miss" is a "miss". A 223, 30-06, 50 BMG, doesn't really matter does it?
 
Lack of experience, lack of definition, and lack of mutual respect is where conversations like this are born.

Experience -
You shoot enough coyotes with a .223, and then shoot enough coyotes with a .22-250... you'll definitely see the difference.

Lack of definition -
"Good enough" can not be quantified. You don't ask a specific enough question, you won't get a specific enough answer. .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will certainly not kill them as hard flat dead as a .22-250.

Lack of mutual respect -
This last one is most important. People are convinced of their own superiority these days. I talk to a ridiculous number of people about cartridges and rifles each week as a function of my profession. This last week I talked to someone that was certain a 338LM had better ballistics than a 7LRM to 1000yds. He didn't respect that I had volumes more experience than he. He's never touched a 7LRM in his life, yet knew everything about it and knew it was all bad. He didn't respect me, and I sure as heck didn't respect him. Why should anyone respect blind idiocy that completely ignores the facts? I finally hung up on him. Had I placated him, I could have no doubt sold him a rifle chambered in 338LM. Yet, when someone isn't prepared to see logic, that isn't a person I want to be associated with in any way.

To bring it to a point: If people let their actual experiences separate what they actually know, from what they think they know, it would be a lot easier to respect people's opinions. As it stands, most people regularly regurgitate things they've read or heard as if it were their own verified and personally experienced information.

To the topic at hand, this discussion requires very specific parameters to be of any value. The .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will NOT kill them as effectively in all situations, at all distances, in all locations, as a .22-250 or similar cartridge. That is a fact. This does not then define that one must not use a .223Rem. This only defines that one must know the actual capabilities of the cartridge they are choosing.

Knowing the actual capabilities requires a lot of shooting, at a lot of distances, in a lot of situations, in a lot of locations. My guess is that there are far more people that think they have a lock on the .223's capabilities than actually have a lock on it. The old "works for me" adage seems to be applied more than not. Since it's all Mr. So-and-So needs, why would anyone else need anything different?

... and so it goes. Knowing, is better than thinking you know. Don't put so much weight on what others think about your chosen cartridge. Use it, and the results will speak for themselves in due time. Once you've seen the results, do not then presume to tell others what they don't need, simply because you've fulfilled your own need.
 


i can follow you "a miss is a miss" theory completely, but i think its the window for 'less than ideal, but still will mean dead reasonably fast' is where i was going. that gap gets a bit wider with a more your more traditional hunting calibers slinging their typically larger/heavier projectiles.

also for joe beer-camp who doesnt really understand how critical proper bullet selection is when buying ammmo they're also going to have a much easier time both finding and buying a good hunting bullet if you put that person at walmart to get sum huntin ammo.



and i think we can both agree that a significant enough number of the guys who walk to a gun counter and say 'i want to buy a deer rifle' that steering folks towards a more ideal caliber makes a lot of sense - at least at a knee jerk response to the question.

now if your old boss was doing so just out of ignorance, that's a whole separate issue.
 
Originally Posted By: canislatrans54Originally Posted By: CZ527

I do agree with him about the 223 not being enough for coyotes though.... Although it's one of my favorite deer guns. The rationale (and believe me it's rational) lies with the fact that I'm not going to wait on a coyote to stop moving, not going to hesitate if they hold up at distance and frankly not worried at all about an "ethical" shot.... Just trying to get them down as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Deer, on the other hand, I would never take a chance on wounding. I wait for a great shot opportunity and don't shoot if I can't get it.

I've heard that old shot placement saying, and I couldn't agree more when it comes to game, but coyotes...? Absolutely not. Waiting on broadside standing shots is ridiculous. I do all I can to stop them, but when they get inside 150 yards they're gonna eat a bullet running or not.






Sir, as I do not know you personally, I will not get into a debate with you.
And, trust me...I'm neither trying to be disrepectful...nor stir any pot here.

But, I do find your comment fascinating.
Maybe it's just me, and the respect I have for any animal.
But, personally, I see no reason to take any less of an ethical shot on a coyote, than I would on a deer.
confused.gif

And I haven't (by any means) always waited for a broadside shot.
I have taken plenty of coyotes down in just about any angle possible.
But, yes, I do wait for what I feel is the most ethical shot opportunity.
For me, I hate "wounding" a coyote, just as much as I hate "wounding" a deer.
Shots at a 150 yd coyote...I've taken them, yes. But only if I had no other choice.
Since the majority of the coyotes I have called since 1995 (several hundred), have been taken at less than 75 yds, I always try my best to get them to commit to coming closer than 150 yds.
And, a coyote who's going faster than a slow lope...unless it's already been hit, and is bugging out...any that's going faster than that, get a pass normally. Simply because I don't need to kill one THAT bad...unless a landowner had been having trouble & asked me to take care of the issue.
IMHO, if that running coyote comes to my calling...and leaves without being shot at...there's a very good chance that I can come back and get him/her later....and maybe it won't only offer a running shot. Maybe it will stop next time.
But, like I say, that is just what I do.

Please have a nice day, sir. And good hunting to you!!!
cool.gif


Not upset by your comments at all sir.

I developed the "need" for something more powerful than 223 when I started aiming for a higher killed/called ratio. I've been shooting various 6mms for the last 7 seasons, and the 6 WOA for the last 5 or 6. It just flat kills them instantly. My partner refers to it as "220 swift dead, but without the hole." My other partner (dad) says it looks like lightning struck them.

All in all, the less than ideal shots I often take are ethically balanced due to the greater payload delivered. I'd feel bad about it, but they simply don't suffer. I have lost ONE coyote shot with the 6 WOA. I saw the bullet impact and called out immediately "we may not recover that one." He was the 5th coyote to get a bullet in that stand, during a contest a couple years back. Shot at great distance, on the move, and hit low in the flank. Judging from the amount of hair that flew and the lack of blood.... He's still out there killing cute furry stuff.

Anyway, we are all entitled to opinions, and I respect yours as much as I hope you respect mine.

Happy hunting buddy!
 
I will never ever argue that shot placement rules above all. Quick humane kills are top of the list also, be it crow, coyote, deer, turtle. Most times, I wait for the best opportunity and the closest possible shot. I don't hunt for a living or competition, so if the opportune shot doesn't come up, I wait for another time. My shots usually are 50 to 150 yards. Therefore, I usually use a 223 or this year my 20 Practical. I do have bigger calibers but they don't see the field very much. If I get the chance to hunt where shots are going to be past those distances, the 22-250AI comes out of the safe.
 
Orkan & CZ527....


I understand what you both are saying (now that CZ cleared things up for me). Hahaha

In '95, I was just getting into calling (having spent the previous 20+ yrs hunting coyotes a different way).
And, at the time, I used the only rifle i owned (for both deer and coyotes)...a Chinese SKS.

A couple yrs later, i finally switched to the caliber I had grown up with...a bolt action .243.
A year after getting the .243, i decided to buy a bolt .223, because at the time (at least in my area), the ammo was considerably cheaper to buy.

So, from '98-'04, I "took turns" between the .243 & the .223, depending on how I felt that day.

Then, in '05, I decided to sell the .243, since I was no longer hunting deer.
And, since then, a .223 is the only rifle i have used for coyotes.

I admit though...I do own a Marlin 336Y .30-30. But, even after owning it for the last 5 years, i have yet to take it out of the box. Hahaha
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotthere is a discussion on another board about the 223 being a good round for coyotes. one of the ill informed goof balls writes this


JFYI, Slicker than snot, that goofball has probably killed more coyotes than most of the people here. He actually was very instrumental with this site years ago. I don't agree with him on many things, but he has a lot of experience.

I did enjoy Vics comment about taking up golf!
 
For the record, I do agree that .223 isn't enough smack for coyotes. At least not the situations I find myself in.

That doesn't mean I care one singular bit what anyone else chooses. Dance with the girl you brought. If it was the wrong choice, you will soon know.
 
I'm sure this post has got to be confusing to a lot of new and old hunters alike. Everyday, we read how the 17 Remington and all the 20 cals, fast twist 223's,25x45,6x45 ect. are killing the poo poo out of coyotes. Even the giant killer 17 HMR. Now all of a sudden the 223 isn't good enough. Have the coyotes gotten tougher to kill or the bullets no longer doing their job. If the shooter knows the capabilities of his rifle and load and uses it at reasonable distances that are within the realm of the cartridge and bullet, then why all of a sudden is it not a good caliber for taking game? Granted, a larger caliber has more killing power or should I say, larger bullet. But why do people build 223's with a fast twist to shoot the heavy bullets? I'm told better ballistics, they buck the wind better, yada,yada. Now the 223 isn't a good round? I wonder if the chance you might have to do a bit of tracking to find a dead coyote is more the truth as opposed to hitting them with a larger caliber so you don't have to take the time to look for the downed critter or you just want to make shots at distances over 3-400 yards because you get a bigger challenge from it. I'm not trying to start a fight and don't care if you hunt with a hammer. I just don't know why all of a sudden the 223 is not a capable round after all these years.
 
Great post for helping me decide on a 6.5 Grendel. With 5 .223's, you just never have enough evil black rifles that will kill coyotes. I have a 243 also but it is just a Remington,..

Talk to me Jason Mosler..
 
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