Acceptable shotgun patterns

jacobhwrd

New member
So what do you all think are acceptable patterns for shotguns? I.e. How many pellets and what size circle are you using to figure your max range? Also I use BB and T shot. No interest is 00 but have thought about trying #4 this year. I think I'm being picky as to my pellet count so I'm limiting my range more then I need to.
 
I assume you are interested in a pattern for coyotes, if so here is what I do. I have a lifesize coyote cutout. I buy a roll of construction paper, cut it in 4 ft lengths, place the cutout on it and spray paint the outer edges. Place a spotter in the heart lung area. At whatever distance I place the target I want a minimum of 5 pellets in the kill zone. No hard fixed rule but that's what I want. If pushing beyond 40 yards, I am reluctant to go smaller than #4 buck lead, heavier than lead maybe one size smaller but I am of the bigger is better school, others go with more pellets is better, your choice
 
I have debated, researched and tried many different kinds of shotgun shells. In the end, I found that #4 buck shot works great out of my Remington 870 with a modified choke which is good out to 50 yards. The results at 50 yards were about 10 pellets on a cardboard shape coyote. Guys in the past have talked about this and many say 4 pellets within 6 inch circle is good enough to kill a coyote. Hope this helps.
 
Truckloads of info on this subject on this forum, do some searching around and you'll turn up alot of good info. Opinions vary greatly but the 4 pellets in a 6" circle as stated above is about the minimum you want, the "magic pellet" as the say sometimes hits them in the right spot but not always and I don't count on it.

One huge factor in this debate is the type of pellet your using, weather it be lead, copper plated lead, tungston, etc. The more expensive tungsten based loads carry more energy at further ranges, therefore have better potential. You may have X amount of hits at 50 yards with lead but are those penetrating? Something to think about.

I pattern mine at 35 & 50 yards with tungston based loads on posterboard. I like to see 100% pattern on the 35 yard targets and 80% or greater on the 50 yard target.
 
I've always gone with the 5 in 8" with a total of 10 in 12" rule. For example, you have a 12" circle target. You should have a minimum of 10 hits inside the 12" circle with 5 of those being inside an 8" circle. I've been doing this for the past 10 years and I can't remember a coyote that got away from me with the shotgun. I typically shoot #4 Buck or T shot but the rule is the same.
 
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The above pattern was shot at 40 yards and it was a Remington Wingmaster HD #2 shot 1-1/2 oz load.

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This pattern was a Federal Premium 3" 1-7/8 oz copper coated BB load with 98 pellets in it. 15 pellets hit in the 12" circle.

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This pattern was shot with a Remington Wingmaster HD BB load with 70 to 72 pellets in it and it had 32 pellets inside the 12" circle. Notice how the HD BB load with about 25 less pellets in it put over twice as many pellets in the 12" circle than the copper coated lead BB load did.

I have to shoot lead free shot at coyotes and the Remington HD BB, the HW13 BB and the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot are my favorite shot sizes. The Federal Heavyweight #2 shot has 90 pellets per 1-1/2 oz load.

Below are some speed and gel penetration numbers fro the KPY Shotshell Ballistic program using different types of shot. This program suggests that 2.50" of gel penetration is required to reliably kill geese. After entering a bunch of numbers with lead BB shot it looks like 3.70" of gel penetration would be close to what is needed to reliably kill coyotes.

I do not recommend using steel shot for coyotes and just because a lead number 4 buckshot pellet can kill a coyote a long ways off doesn't mean you should be shooting at coyotes a long ways off with lead number 4 buckshot.

Steel T shot at 1500 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 23.4 yards.

Nickel plated lead BB shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 47.6 yards.

Remington Wingmaster HD BB shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 64.4 yards.

Federal Heavyweight #2 shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 72.8 yards.

Lead #4 buckshot at 1250 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 109 yards.

Federal Heavyweight Coyote BB shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 119.4 yards.

The tungsten alloy denser than lead shot is much harder than lead so it patterns really good, it penetrates deeper and breaks bones much easier than lead shot does.

If you ever come across some Federal Heavyweight #2 shot waterfowl loads at a decent price buy them!



 
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Ok thanks. Lots of good info here. I am using the tungsten T shot right now. I have nickel plated lead BB but not really impressed with it. I am liking my shot and choke combo so far. I will pattern it again and see just what kind of range I can get now.
 
I tried to resist putting in my 2 cents.
I get beat up SOOO Bad when I do.
But here it IS and It's what I get and do...
I use home rolled Lead "F" with "Steel" powder 3" 1 3/8 oz. and 3 1/2" 1 5/8 oz. 870 supper express. Dead coyote extended ported .669 choke.
The 3" run at 1500 fps and the 3 1/2's go 1350.
I pattern at 60 yards and on a paper plate I always get 10 to 15 pellets in the plate.
At 70 yards close to the same like 8 to 12 . It will rock and sock a coyote ...
 
I use #4 buck and aim at their neck when broadside. I figured it will hit them in the head and neck and maybe some strays in the chest. I have killed one at 30 yards with #5 turkey loads this way and saw my brother kill one too. It seems a heart lung shot would take a long time to kill a coyote since there is no bullet expansion and shockwave to destroy tissue. Just my 2 cents.
 
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on thing for your guys to remember is that shot gun patterns are taking on the appearance of group shooting.

Shooting at running coyotes at 25-35 yards and having a shotgun pattern the size of a dinner plate or smaller will leade to a lot of misses. Few remember to leade a coyote when he is running or trotting, they appear so large.

Also, when shooting at a pattern board, many will forget that often you will knock them down and a follow up shot is needed...keep that in mind.

So, keep in mind the terrain you hunt in and choke accordingly.

Most of my hunting with shotguns is in dessert terrain, rarely did I ever have to shoot a coyote beyond 45 yards. ON the other hand, I did have to shoot a lot with them hauling azz in at warp speed with shots being between 5-30 yards. I recently sold a Rem 1100 that had killed over 500 coyotes with a fixed full choke, back bored, forcing cone lengthened. Guys that hunted with me loved that choke because it patterned "just right". VERY few coyotes got away, with 3" lead BB's, Rem, fed, or Win, and factory #4 Buckshot.

Later on, I got screw in chokes for my Rem 11/87 shot a Carlson's turkey choke. It takes quite an experienced shot gun shot to kill coyotes with this gun as the pattern is 15"-20" at 40 yards. I quit letting novice shot guns shooters use the 11/87 with the turkey choke.

3-4 pellets of #4 buck and the coyote is on the ground, keep shooting till there is no movement!

Over the years, I took a lot of different guys calling. I tried all kinds of shotguns, from the very light Ithaca 37 to the heavy weight Ithaca 10ga semi auto with it's 32" fixed full choke, lots of 870's with different barrels, BPS, Super black eagle, Mossburg 500's, 1100's with barrels from 32"-18", beretta 390/391's. Guys that do not shoot shotguns a lot or little at all will do better with a softer kicking shotgun with a std full choke with lead shot that is not a chunk of lead to handle. It has never ceased to amaze me how many people can not hit a running, trotting, walking coyote with either a rifle or shotgun. On a trip to Mexico in the 80's, one guy missed 12 coyotes with my shotgun. Later on, we spend quite a bit of time on the skeet range, he did not miss any after that!

So, the word of caution, balance your shotgun choke with your terrain.
 
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Good points ackleyman, skeet shooting is not only fun but excellent practice. It will also pay dividends to remember that when you pull the trigger on a shotgun load, the pellets do not all arrive at the same time. That pattern you see on the board will never be replicated on a moving target. You may have heard of a shotstring. If you were able to be above the shotstring looking down you would see basically the letter J. The faster your swing, the more elongated the tail of the J. This can account for misses and a lack of DRT shots because your pattern density is not what you saw on the board.
 
I think that it is nothing short of fantastic what is happening with chokes and shot.

It does take a balance to know what is best for your hunting situations.

Great point on the shot string, most bird hunters are very aware that shot strings can be very long.

When guys play with their shotguns, they are often shooting some kind of shot gun sports which makes them even a better shot with the super tight patterns.

I would love to see more guys rolling their own buckshot loads, it is very addictive.

On another note, I put a Burris speed beade on my 11/87, love it for shooting 5 Stand and Crows. The speed beade sure helps my eye pick up the target faster.
 
Originally Posted By: azmastablastaGood points ackleyman, skeet shooting is not only fun but excellent practice. It will also pay dividends to remember that when you pull the trigger on a shotgun load, the pellets do not all arrive at the same time. That pattern you see on the board will never be replicated on a moving target. You may have heard of a shotstring. If you were able to be above the shotstring looking down you would see basically the letter J. The faster your swing, the more elongated the tail of the J. This can account for misses and a lack of DRT shots because your pattern density is not what you saw on the board.

The lateral shot string on a fast 40 mph target at a full 40 yards amounts to a matter of a few lateral inches. Something like 3"-4". The difference in individual shells variance can have a greater effect than that - or less even. As a practical matter it doesn't make much difference in the field. Most misses by shooters are a matter of several feet. The idea that a hunter can swing a shotgun barrel fast enough laterally to spray the shot like a garden hose water stream swept quickly sideways is silly. Misses on a fast moving coyote can't be blamed on the shot string. You would have more luck with "the sun was in my eyes."
 
What ever the shot string is, you have to leade a coyote running full speed. I remember a hunt in S. Ca with four of us in two trucks. We parked the trucks on the first stand as daylight was breaking, and noticed a light snow starting to fall. We were all experienced howlers and hand callers. We took turns hand calling. Strangest thing happened, we could hear coyotes coming to us barking and howling like a bunch of beagles. We picked up 4 on that stand.

By the next stand, it was snowing at a pretty good clip. We were all in a straight line when we started calling. We had coyotes coming in on us from all directions. We picked up 5 on that stand, lots of misses as guys were getting excited, missing what appeared to be easy shots, broadside coyotes running wide open.

ON the next stand, we had a lone coyote come in and he ran about 40 yards from us, straight left to right and there were 13 buckshot rounds shot at him. I got him at around 75 yards with a single buckshot to the back of the head.

By this time, ice had started to form on the windshilds and we were worried about getting back through the pass on the interstate, we headed home with 5 rounds of buckshot between the 4 of us and we had picked up 13 for that mornings hunt.

Later on we tried to count up the number of rounds of buckshot we had shot, but we could not truly say. We had a very exciting morning and a hunt of a life time. Two of use were experienced shooters with a shot gun, the other two rarely if ever shot a shotgun unless they were dropping the hammer on hair...guess who was doing all the shooting??? I laughed more on that hunt than any hunt in my life!

One guy fell off the bucket he was sitting on as he was off balance when he shot the heavy 12ga 3" round, he fell into a grease wood bush getting all tangled up. Another guy emptied his gun, got his glove caught in the bottom of the 1100 as he was trying to stuff shells in it with two coyotes running right buy him. Another guy was smoking a cigarette and jammed the cigarette into his gun as he threw up on a coyote, with ashes and the cigarette going down into his shirt and jacket sitting him on fire.
To add insult to injury, on one stand, we had picked up two coyotes, and were all standing around taking a leake. A coyote came in full speed and ran right between us all, not one even tried to get to their gun! It was snowing to beat the band. A good time for all!
 
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I agree ackleyman you have to lead coyotes that are running fast just like a flying bird if you want to hit it.

Many times I have lead a coyote a full nose to tail body length and when I shot I saw the shot hit behind the coyote. Then I doubled the lead and killed the coyote with the second shot.

Many shotgun shots on coyotes are much more like shooting flying birds than they are like shooting a turkey in the head with a shotgun.
 
The lead for a moving target has very little, to absolutely nothing, to do with the shot string. Time of flight for the pellets, speed of the moving target, distance to the target, angle of the target, environmental factors such as wind or intervening brush and finally the actual shooting method used determine the necessary lead. The two most basic mistakes made when shooting a fast mover with a shotgun is to look at the bead instead of maintaining a hard focus on the target and for the shooter to not have their head down on the stock in a solid and consistent mount. Look at the bead and the shooter will slow or stop the swing - guarantee a miss. A consistent and solid mount with the head on the stock is referred to as having "the Rock on the stock." Float the eye above the rib inconsistently and it's another guaranteed miss.
 
Originally Posted By: GCThe lead for a moving target has very little, to absolutely nothing, to do with the shot string. Time of flight for the pellets, speed of the moving target, distance to the target, angle of the target, environmental factors such as wind or intervening brush and finally the actual shooting method used determine the necessary lead. The two most basic mistakes made when shooting a fast mover with a shotgun is to look at the bead instead of maintaining a hard focus on the target and for the shooter to not have their head down on the stock in a solid and consistent mount. Look at the bead and the shooter will slow or stop the swing - guarantee a miss. A consistent and solid mount with the head on the stock is referred to as having "the Rock on the stock." Float the eye above the rib inconsistently and it's another guaranteed miss.

It's obvious you've either been reading false information or are speaking with a lack of experience. Shotstring may be 3-4 inches at 10 ft but at 40 yds on a fast swing it will be measured in feet, period. The idea here is getting as many pellets in the kill zone as possible. Much different on a target board. Any idea otherwise is the silly one. YMMV but that's my story from well over 40 years of study with some of the most well known shooters in this State and a couple of world champions, but I confess I'm not one of those champions, just friends and training parders. The top skeet and sporting clay shooters all know from life experience and the laws of physics that pellets leave the barrel in random order, many deformed by choke and other pellets which causes increased drag and causing them to deflect, hence the spread on even a target board. That phenomenon is exaggerated by the swing of a barrell. The best way to break any clay or bust a bird, even a coyote or rabbit is to understand that spread and take advantage of it. Obviously the pattern is produced by the swing only until the shot leaves the barrell, but aerodynamics take over at that point and each pellet is affected by many different factors, such as how much deformity has occurred to each pellet differently, wind, how spherical each pellet is, wind, humidity etc. Your pattern expands to the point of the loss of energy, otherwise they would call it rifle shooting, two different equations my friend. Actually, it's very simple to prove my theory, you don't need to take my word for it, prove it to yourself, then come back and humbly tell me how right I was. Go to any body of water and fire a shot out to 30-40 yds like the target is still, then fire another swinging as if you're on a bird or coyote. You'll quickly see why so much game is lost or missed due to shotstring density. It takes at least 2-3 pellets to break a clay target, I've seen them bumped and physically moved but not broken many times, why? Shotstring density. How many #4 buck in the kill zone to drop a coyote? You tell me. Use the water trick to improve your skills and you'll greatly improve your take. BTW, I agree with your description of the things that cause a miss, your spot on with those. However we're light years apart on shotstrings, I'm just sayin.
 
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Quote:Shotstring may be 3-4 inches at 10 feet but at 40 yards on a fast swing it will be measured in feet, period.

Quote:Obviously the pattern is produced by the swing...

Quote:That phenomenon is exaggerated by the swing of the barrell.

Shot pattern size, pattern core density and a long deep cone shape (actual shot string is from the front to back of that cone shape) isn't the same thing as a long lateral shot string. If you can swing the barrel fast enough to laterally spray the core density of the shot pattern crossway by several feet in the millisecond the shot exits the barrel you are a phenom. Congrats...

EDIT: Maybe this will help...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=edLXEqnicqk
 
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