Over book without pressure signs?

Varminterror

Varminterror

New member
The other tread looking for a 4350 load in the Berger manual this week reminded me of a curious question I've had for almost as long as I have been reloading (~25yrs).

What say you on over-max (manual) loads which don't show any pressure signs? No primer cratering/flow, no sticky extraction, no case head flattening or ejector/extractor impressions.

I like to work my loads up until I find pressure signs, then work under that limit, but I've had a few instances where I don't see real pressure signs (maybe some flattening, but no flow or anything else) even over max loads.

So do you load by what the rifle and brass are telling you and play off of the edge of the map, or do you limit yourself within the book? (I do a little of both, depending on cartridge and firearm).
 
You have to keep in mind that most published loads are governed by legal cautions and may be on the low side, this is best demonstrated by digging around in some of the older reloading manuals and comparing the data to the newer ones, but powder formulas may have changed slightly over time as well...While I seldom push my limits on loads, since I'm more concerned with accuracy than speed, all test barrels are generally different than commercial offerings and what standards work in the determined "Average" barrel/chamber may be totally different than your individual firearm...

Just as a means of example..We found that when our PD switched from the Model 28 (N frame).357 mag to the Model 685 (L frame) .357 mag, Smith & Wesson had done a cost saving step and eliminated the small pin that locks the barrel to the frame. Shooting the same ammo (these were slightly hotter than non-LEO rounds) in the L frame that we used to shoot in the N frame caused the barrel to torque the sight alignment out of position and almost none of the officers were able to qualify due to the difference...Aside from the missing pin, everything else was the same in the performance arena..

When I'm building test loads, I usually will take my powder charges one or two tenths of a grain above published max loads, but really watching for the normal over pressure signs..If, at any time, I start running into an unusual degree of bolt lift pressure needed I will thoroughly inspect that case and the ones fired on either side to see if it is an anomaly or a specific problem..That's also taking into account the other accepted signs of over pressure..
 
i have run into pressure signs long before reaching book max, i have also run far past book max without pressure signs. when i find an accurate load and i have not reached any pressure signs, i stop. sometimes i never find the accurate load before pressure signs, i switch powder and start over.
 
Originally Posted By: 6724i have run into pressure signs long before reaching book max, i have also run far past book max without pressure signs. when i find an accurate load and i have not reached any pressure signs, i stop. sometimes i never find the accurate load before pressure signs, i switch powder and start over.

This. Happened today. Trying to find a sweet load for my new Rem 700 tact, 20" 1/12". Tried AR-COMP because it's "the Swedish RE-15" LOL! Max load is 42+. I started at 38, 38.5, 39, 39.5, 40, 40.5 and stopped because 5rds touching at 100yds is good for me.
 
Originally Posted By: dan158Have you chrono your loads? Speeds higher or lower than the book?

Some of both. I tend to never worry about published velocities, as it never lines up with reality, especially since the book rarely matches my twist or barrel length, let alone when the book uses a sealed breech system for revolver cartridges, or for a gas gun cartridge.

Like others, I have hit pressure well before the book, but also have had loads well above book not show pressure, even when it exceeds the book velocity. I'm an empirical evidence guy, if I don't see a problem, i don't imagine one. Just curious what other guys do.
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleYou have to keep in mind that most published loads are governed by legal cautions and may be on the low side, this is best demonstrated by digging around in some of the older reloading manuals and comparing the data to the newer ones, but powder formulas may have changed slightly over time as well...While I seldom push my limits on loads, since I'm more concerned with accuracy than speed,

this is very much so important to pay attention to. Even lot variance can change on you.

I know that current production Lil Gun for example is quite a bit hotter than stuff produced just 4 or 5 years ago. If you were to use new powder with old load data - you might be in some serious trouble if you said "ahhh its lil gun, i know its not fussy" and went right to the top of the chart.


this is why many reloading manuals will tell you to re-do your load workups to verify things when ANY component changes - including your powder lot number. It may NOT change, but especially if you're on the higher end of the charge range for your loads is it worth the risk to not back off a few % and do a mini-ladder to make sure?


this is also very much so why a reloading manual should ONLY be considered a guide and you should always do load development from published mins and work your way upward - and know the early pressure signs and be able to read primers.


the safety side of reloading falls on each and every one of us. If you get lax and start ignoring basic safety rules when reloading thats when you end up in trouble.

as others have said - start low and let the gun tell you whats safe and what isnt as you approach the top end of the published charge range.
 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760The books are guides only. Nothing more. Your gun will tell the max, not some lawyer edited book.


Everybody say.......AMEN!!!

I want to find pressure, record that limit, then back off. Way too many variables to believe that a book with what ever barrel they were testing with, with what ever throat, worn bore dia they had, lot # of powder they had, undersize/over size bullets they were shooting at the time, would have only some bearing on my load pressure outcome with my barrel, components.

Read 5 books and get 5 different minimum and maximum pressures, better have your thinking cap on as you go up in powder charges, watch for increased bolt lift, case head scuffing, and cratered primers only mean that your firing pin is over size, so throw that indication out the window(switch to a tougher, thicker cup primer).

Most accuracy loads will be within 2.0g of a max load for that rifle, if not a safe working max load for the rifle.

Basic rules of thumb

Kiss the lands with the bullet

find pressure

make minute adjustments for best accuracy, Ie seating depth, change of primers, vary powder charge

Of course the accuracy requirement for your intended application should always be kept in mind, ie you don't need 1/4" groups to shoot deer out to 250 yards, does not hurt however.
 
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I have found that books are just guides for loading (as said previously). I skimmed through the thread so I apologize if this has been said. I have found that loading to SAAMI specs lead to results similar to the book. However, when loading to the rifle and not SAAMI; I have found that I can squeeze more per round. Loading longer than SAAMI allows more room for expansion within the cartridge.

This in-turn reduces the pressures created, allowing for slightly more bang per round. I Also found that loading long and smashed into the lands, can negate this effect and in-turn increase pressure because it takes more to get the bullet moving when it is up against the outside forces. luckily for me my rifle likes a slight jump to the lands and I can load over book without ill effects.

Caution must be taken though with temperature when load development occurs, if it is cold out and you load to your rifles max; in the heat it will be severely over pressure. I develop max loads in the heat of the summer, and retest them in the cold for deer season.
 
I load 223rem for a savage bolt action. I started at hornady book minimum of 20.8 and now at book max 23.3 and see no issues. everyone I talk to on reloading talk forums says use hodgdons data which maxes at almost 26 if I remember right off hand.

im getting super accuracy at 100 yards now with 23.3 so will go a bit higher and see. I will also check on a chrono and see whats going on too.
 
"What say you on over-max (manual) loads which don't show any pressure signs? No primer cratering/flow, no sticky extraction, no case head flattening or ejector/extractor impressions."

Every thing in my reloading room is different than what the manual's writer has, i.e. my brass is different, my powder/primer/bullet lot is different, and, the caveat, my rifle is different.

As has been said, the books are guides. What was safe in their rifle, with their lot of components, may, or may not, be safe with mine.
 
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