Shotgun pellets Ballistics, a real eye opener!

derbyacresbob

Well-known member
I have seen guys on Duck Hunting Chat and Gobbler Nation Forums show the different ballistics with the different shot sizes and different shot densities.

It is a real mind blower to see just how much difference there is between the ballistics in steel shot, lead shot, 12g/cc shot 15g/cc shot and 18g/cc TSS shot.

I just bought the KPY Shotshell Ballistics Program and it is pretty cool to play with entering different shot sizes, types, speeds and the amount of gel penetration wanted.

The KPY Shotshell Ballistics say you need 1.5" of gel penetration to kill ducks and 2.5" of gel penetration to kill geese at a minimum of 600 fps with steel shot.

My guess is you would want at least 3.50" of gel penetration to reliably kill coyotes.

Look at the shot type and the speed of the shot. The amount of gel penetration is on the far right. The target distance is how far away you will get the gel penetration that you enter into the program.

The rows that I wrote Led on are lead shot, RHD is Remington Wingmaster HD shot that is 12g/cc, TSS is Tungsten Super Shot that is 18g/cc.

The TSS "Tungsten Super Shot" is unreal! It is really heavy for it's size and it is very hard so it doesn't slow down much and it penetrates like crazy. TSS is very expensive but many hunters are using it for turkey hunting and in 410s and 28 gauges for ducks and geese.

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Look at the steel shot at 1500 fps it doesn't penetrate worth a darn compared to lead shot that is going 1300 fps. Make sure you look at target distance.

I have always wondered why no ammo manufacturers made any lead BBB shot or T shot loads. Look at the difference in target distance between the lead BB, BBB and T shot loads.

Look at the TSS #9 shot and the lead #5 shot and the target distances. I lowered the gel penetration to 1.5" so it would be more like shooting a turkey in the head. Check out the difference in TSS #9 shot and lead #9 shot.
 
I did not know about the Tungsten Super Shot. I had heard of the Tungsten Matrix. This Super Shot sounds better.
FYI: The more you reload a Plastic shot shell, the less velocity it will produce. It is because the mouth weakens and the crimp is not as good as a new (first time ) crimp.
Thanks for the write up and Post. this was good information. I enjoyed this.

I shoot my 28 gauge for everything but Ducks, and I think that if I changed to the Tungsten shot it would make my Pheasant hunting even more fun. As I have tried several different shot, even nickel Plated and copper plated shot.
 
Steel is crap. I looked into reloading HeaviShot or something similar for a snow goose trip a couple years ago, it was cost prohibitive to shoot any volume of the stuff either commercial or reloaded so we went steel. To say I was disappointed with the performance would be an understatement. If I had a do-over I think I'd cough up for quality non-lead or stay home.
 
Originally Posted By: cherokeetracker
FYI: The more you reload a Plastic shot shell, the less velocity it will produce. It is because the mouth weakens and the crimp is not as good as a new (first time ) crimp.


How much velocity is actually lost ? I would like to see the load data, along with the new case and each firing velocity numbers along with weather conditions since that can effect things too.
 
This steel verses lead for duck hunting should be a non-issue as a waterfowl load, it is illegal. If your steel loads don't perform well for you at fifty yards don't shoot them that far, wait until they are close enough for the steel load you are shooting does work.

Second option is to spend the money for high density shot. I shoot old shotguns, mainly sxs hammer shotguns from the early part of the 20th century. I load 7/8 oz. of soft non-toxic #6's in my 12ga and it works well, my cost is about $35/25 shells, not that much more than premium steel. Taking a limit of ducks with a hundred year old shotgun, priceless. If I'm shooting a modern shotgun, steel works just fine.

For coyotes I load NP lead or ITX BB's 1 1/4 oz for the 12 ga 2 3/4" and 1 oz for the 16 ga 2 1/2" shells for the combo and drillings. In a modern gun I've picked up enough DC and High Density BB's on sale tables and close outs to cover my seldom use of them.

TSS shot is about $50/lb ITX 10 is about $22/lb.
 
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I was showing the steel vs lead for the guys that think about using steel shot for coyotes.

The steel BB gets 3.50" of gel penetration at 18.1 yards the lead BB gets 3.50" of gel penetration at 53.9 yards. ITX BB shot shows 3.50" of gel penetration at 35.1 yards.

This is what I want coyote hunters to know, there is a huge deference in the performance of steel and lead shot.

Natchez has Remington Hevi-Shot for $10.00 per pound. They say they are sizes #2 and BB but the shot really measures out to size #1 up to a little bigger than BB almost BBB. So for coyote loads this is a really good buy.
 
Lead and tungsten definitely have a lot more energy and are obviously the better options for coyotes, but I did roll a coyote up at 50 yards with steel BBs while goose hunting one time.

The load was a Remington 3" Nitro-Steel Magnum 1-3/8 BBs going 1300 fps.

I wouldn't recommend steel shot for coyotes, but I was surprised how hard the steel BB hit that coyote.
 
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Shooting shotguns at longer ranges really takes a discipline in patterning, and point of aim vs impact. Many will end up with a set of sights on their shotgun that approach this in a scientific way to maximize the use of their shotgun.

Great post, Derby!
 
If you want to see a guy kill birds at long range with a shotgun look up George Digweed. He is an English shotgunner that has won clay target championships for so many years and times he has probably lost count. He wingshoots crows and pigeons in England at some amazing distances, like 75+ yards. And his shooting isn't a magic pellet lucky shot, this guy has it figured out. Crows aren't coyotes but it sure is fun to watch him fold them up at 80 yards! Digweed only takes high percentage shots at good angles where his pellets can dig deep enough for clean kills. That's why he can do such feats consistently, the God given talent and hundreds of thousands of shots fired experience combined with the maturity, judgement and patience to wait for the right opportunity. Then boom, poof and thud.
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Digweed is an amazing shooter, his actual job is cleaning out the pigeons in those old English Castles where he honed his shooting. His shotgun is a custom built over and under.

You tube has some video's of him that will amaze a wing shooter.
 
Originally Posted By: TXCOONDOGOriginally Posted By: cherokeetracker
FYI: The more you reload a Plastic shot shell, the less velocity it will produce. It is because the mouth weakens and the crimp is not as good as a new (first time ) crimp.


How much velocity is actually lost ? I would like to see the load data, along with the new case and each firing velocity numbers along with weather conditions since that can effect things too.

I cannot find that chart I had at one time, But on the average it has been about 30 FPS LESS for each loading. Ex: 5th loading is going to be 150 FPS less than original load.
Now several things that have to be considered are, the crimp of the loader ( progressive or single stage ) How new is the shot shell,, By that I mean the OLD AA hulls or the new AAH or Be it Remington.
This is not usually something to get overly concerned about, but something to remember, if one is loading for Hunting. I prefer first or second time loads for my hunting rounds.
The place most predominant, that an effect is seen is, a hard right or left crosser. One might miss with a shell that has been loaded 15 times. 350 FPS difference? Maybe maybe not.
As you well know (if you reload shotgun shells) there is many variables with the reloading of them. Splits, Holes, cracks, or primer pockets getting loosened, have all different affects on the ballistics, and especially the crimp.
I was not trying to start any kind of issue, but made the remark point being, That is reloading shotshells and using quality shot, do not cut corners and try loading old hulls.
The said chart or any other information concerning this velocity loss is difficult to pinpoint a specific amount, of loss since there is so many variables in shotshell loads. So I am saying it probably does not matter what lab the information comes from, the averages are just that. Averages. They will probably all vary.
By the way, if I do come across the info or chart I will be happy to post it, or even PM it.
 
Originally Posted By: TXCOONDOGIs there a penetration difference between plated and non-plated lead or Hevi-shot (tungsten) of same size?

I don't think there would be much penetration difference between plated lead and non plated lead if the lead has the same Antimony percentage in it.

I have shot catalogs with plated lead and the catalogs flatten out the plated lead pretty good.

The Denser than lead shot like Remington Wingmaster HD, Hevi-Shot and Winchester Xtended Range shot are all 12g/cc shot lead shot with 5% Antimony is right at 11.1g/cc shot.

The Denser than lead 12g/cc shot out penetrates lead shot of the same size by quite a bit.

Look at test 3 and test 4 at the top of this post. The lead BB shot got 3.50" of gel penetration at 53.9 yards, the Rem HD BB shot at the same speed got 3.50" of gel penetration at 71 yards. The same amount of penetration 17 yards farther away is a huge difference in pellet performance for a shotgun.


For my predator shotgun loads all of my reloads are in once fired hulls or new 3" primed hulls that have never been fired.
 
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobOriginally Posted By: TXCOONDOGIs there a penetration difference between plated and non-plated lead or Hevi-shot (tungsten) of same size?

I don't think there would be much penetration difference between plated lead and non plated lead if the lead has the same Antimony percentage in it.

I have shot catalogs with plated lead and the catalogs flatten out the plated lead pretty good.

The Denser than lead shot like Remington Wingmaster HD, Hevi-Shot and Winchester Xtended Range shot are all 12g/cc shot lead shot with 5% Antimony is right at 11.1g/cc shot.

The Denser than lead 12g/cc shot out penetrates lead shot of the same size by quite a bit.

Look at test 3 and test 4 at the top of this post. The lead BB shot got 3.50" of gel penetration at 53.9 yards, the Rem HD BB shot at the same speed got 3.50" of gel penetration at 71 yards. The same amount of penetration 17 yards farther away is a huge difference in pellet performance for a shotgun.


For my predator shotgun loads all of my reloads are in once fired hulls or new 3" primed hulls that have never been fired.

I seen the data before posting. I've also done some testing and concluded similar findings.
However, some companies mislead consumers with deeper penatration, more consistent pattern,and extended ranges, etc when it comes to plating.
 
What really stands out to me is the differential in penetration per shot size. All we're really talking about with the different materials is pellet weight: higher density for a given size means greater mass per pellet, greater mass at the same speed = better penetration. Another way to get greater mass is to shoot larger shot.

I'd be interested to see these tables for 00 Buck and #4 Buck.
 
The only problem with going with larger pellets is having way less pellets per shell. The problem with most shotgun loads for geese and predators is the pattern falls apart way before the pellet energy and penetration does.


What makes the Federal Heavyweight 15g/cc shot and the "TSS" Tungsten Super Shot so dang good is very high mass in a small pellet. It's to bad these types of shot are so expensive or not available any longer.

All of the below pellet data is with 1250 fps loads.

Number 4 buck gives 3.50" of gel penetration at 117.3 yards.

00 Buck gives 3.50" of gel penetration at 235.2 yards.

Rem Wingmaster HD BB give 3.50" of gel penetration at 67.9 yards.

Federal Heavyweight #2 shot gives 3.50" of gel penetration at 75.5 yards.

TSS #1 shot gives 3.59" of gel penetration at 140.2 yards.


These loads were all 1-1/2 oz loads. Here are the pellet counts per shell.

Number 4 buck 32 pellets,00 Buck 12 pellets, Rem HD BB 70 pellets, Federal Heavyweight #2 97 pellets and TSS #1 shot 67 pellets.
 
To be honest GC that is my educated guess? LOL

According to the KPY Shotshell Ballistic program 2.50" is required to kill geese.

Since I have killed lots of coyotes with lead BBs back when I could use lead shot I started entering different numbers in the KPY Ballistics program and came up with 3.50" of gel penetration.

I have never used any gel for checking penetration but the gel they use for this program is some pretty tough gel!

At 1200 fps a lead BB gives 3.50" of gel penetration at 44.8 yards. From my experience of shooting 25 pound to 35 pound coyotes I think that 44.8 yards is about right for lead BB shot.

With lead BB shot at 1200 fps you get 4.0" of gel penetration at 31.1 yards.

With lead BB shot at 1200 fps you get 4.5" of gel penetration at 18.9 yards.

I know that this KPY program is not going to be 100% accurate but from what I have seen the numbers look pretty good to me.

Some of the pellet counts are off a little from what I have seen but even with factory shotgun shells the shot sizes can an do very some.

Some of the Remington HD 1-1/2 oz #2 shot loads I got had around 125 pellets in each shell. Then I got another batch of the Rem HD #2s that only had right at 100 pellets in each shell. Just by looking at them you could see they were bigger than #2s and they measured out to be Rem HD #1 pellets even though they never claimed to have the HD pellets in size #1 shot.

I reloaded around 350 3" 1-1/2 oz loads with Federal Heavyweight #2 shot in them. When I counted the pellets I got 90 to 91 pellets per each 1-1/2 oz load. This program shows that 1-1/2 oz of 15g/cc #2 Federal Heavyweight shot should have 97.59 pellets per shell.

So the shot size or the density of the shot may not be exactly what is in the KPY program.
 
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