22-250 AI barrel twist rate

D

dpollard

New member
I am looking at the Criterion and Shilen Savage pre-fits for the 22-250 AI. One is a 9 twist and the other is an 8 twist. What are the heaviest bullets the respective twists will shoot?

Also - what are the lightest bullets each twist will accurately shoot?

My end goal is this, shoot heavy for caliber bullets for long-range and also be able to load lighter bullets for varmints.

Am I asking too much from these fast twist rates?
 
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Twist rates are only part of the equation you need to think about.

OK, you want to shoot a 80g A max or 75g A max in the 8 twist, about the heaviest you can go. So, the gunsmith throats the barrel to accommodate these real long bullets, which will require around .080 freebore +.

Now, you want to shoot 40,50, and 55g bullets, these bullets really should have zero freebore to .020 freebore.

So, when the barrel is new, you might get by with shooting the light bullets as they still have to jump to engage the land, ie. you can not seat the bullets out to get anywhere near the lands.

There are alternatives where a gunsmith can throat the barrel about half way in between, but this may create a pressure spike with the heavier bullets.

In the 9 twist, the heaviest you can go is the 69g Sierra and a 72g Berger, still have to have longer throats.

So, choose your poison.

My longest shots would be around 550 yards, I chose a 12 twists in my 22/250 AI with zero freebore. I can shoot the 60g Berger, 60g NOsler, and 60g V max at 3700 with great accuracy...with long barrel life.

VLD bullets as a general rule of thumb, do not like a lot of bullet jump in 22 caliber. Often, when you start jumping VLD bullets very far, your barrel life is gone. So, you have to throat long to accommodate the 75g -80g, when they start jumping very far from barrel wear, time to put on a new barrel. This combo is hard on barrels...come to Jesus Time.

Bottom line, it is a lot more complicated than just choosing a 8-9 twist.

You should talk to:

Rich's custom guns that is a sponsor on this site for custom needs on a chamber. Most custom jobs
Do not get the most out of the project due to the chamber put in the barrel and how it is throated.

Good luck and I think that wanting to shoot the heavy and light bullets is a really BAD choice. I hope you pick one or the other, twist accordingly, then throat to accommodate. Also, if you want to shoot Lapua brass, that is another over size reamer ground especially for Lapua large size brass.

It is a lot cheaper to do it right the first time. I had to blow a lot of money learning these lessons above.

Also, accuracy is a relative thing, what one guys considers accurate, another calls a worn out barrel. Consider your goals in how accurate you want to be with your load development, if you want to shoot long range, you should be hoping to get at least .250-.320 three shot groups at the largest.

Custom gunsmiths that take their time indicating the barrels in properly, using quality reamers to match your needs, can accomplish building a rifle that shoots bug holes with ease. It cost me about $4000 to learn this lesson. You rarely if ever hear it being discussed, it is more popular to discuss the bling on the rifle.

I got burned so many times that I order my own reamer and send to the gunsmith, and make sure that he has a set of pilots that will accommodate your reamer as brands of reamers may take different types of pilots.

Good luck
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanTwist rates are only part of the equation you need to think about.

OK, you want to shoot a 80g A max or 75g A max in the 8 twist, about the heaviest you can go. So, the gunsmith throats the barrel to accommodate these real long bullets, which will require around .080 freebore +.

Now, you want to shoot 40,50, and 55g bullets, these bullets really should have zero freebore to .020 freebore.

So, when the barrel is new, you might get by with shooting the light bullets as they still have to jump to engage the land, ie. you can not seat the bullets out to get anywhere near the lands.

There are alternatives where a gunsmith can throat the barrel about half way in between, but this may create a pressure spike with the heavier bullets.

In the 9 twist, the heaviest you can go is the 69g Sierra and a 72g Berger, still have to have longer throats.

So, choose your poison.

My longest shots would be around 550 yards, I chose a 12 twists in my 22/250 AI with zero freebore. I can shoot the 60g Berger, 60g NOsler, and 60g V max at 3700 with great accuracy...with long barrel life.

VLD bullets as a general rule of thumb, do not like a lot of bullet jump in 22 caliber. Often, when you start jumping VLD bullets very far, your barrel life is gone. So, you have to throat long to accommodate the 75g -80g, when they start jumping very far from barrel wear, time to put on a new barrel. This combo is hard on barrels...come to Jesus Time.

Bottom line, it is a lot more complicated than just choosing a 8-9 twist.

You should talk to:

Rich's custom guns that is a sponsor on this site for custom needs on a chamber. Most custom jobs
Do not get the most out of the project due to the chamber put in the barrel and how it is throated.

Good luck and I think that wanting to shoot the heavy and light bullets is a really BAD choice. I hope you pick one or the other, twist accordingly, then throat to accommodate. Also, if you want to shoot Lapua brass, that is another over size reamer ground especially for Lapua large size brass.

It is a lot cheaper to do it right the first time. I had to blow a lot of money learning these lessons above.

Also, accuracy is a relative thing, what one guys considers accurate, another calls a worn out barrel. Consider your goals in how accurate you want to be with your load development, if you want to shoot long range, you should be hoping to get at least .250-.320 three shot groups at the largest.

Custom gunsmiths that take their time indicating the barrels in properly, using quality reamers to match your needs, can accomplish building a rifle that shoots bug holes with ease. It cost me about $4000 to learn this lesson. You rarely if ever hear it being discussed, it is more popular to discuss the bling on the rifle.

I got burned so many times that I order my own reamer and send to the gunsmith, and make sure that he has a set of pilots that will accommodate your reamer as brands of reamers may take different types of pilots.

Good luck

Real solid advice.
 
ackleyman,

Thank you kindly for taking the time to respond to my questions so thoroughly! You definitely made my decision easy, pick one and not try to have a do-all rifle. The long-range part of the equation was just a bonus as I have a dedicated long-range rifle so I may just stick with the lighter bullets and not have to worry about having the barrel throated.
 
You still have to check with the gunsmith on the following

1. Does he have a Lapua Reamer for the 22/250 AI-there is a difference, IF you want to use Lapua
brass

2. Does he have a reamer with zero freebore or .020 freebore

don't compromise on either of these two!!! I can not stress this enough!

Ideal is to have the 50g Ballistic tip with the base of the bullet at the shoulder neck junction. This will put the 55g Ballistic tip just slightly below the shoulder neck junction. The 60g shoots Bug HOles Suffed down in the case with win 760...tiny, tiny groups. A 60g Berger at 3700 is wicked ugly on rock chucks and coyotes, I can only bet the V max is ugly on ugly...I have only worked up loads with them...never brought blood. I shot a bob cat in half with only a small gut string holding the two halves together on a hundred yard shot with 60g Berger at 3700. Had to make a shoulder mount out of that front half.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymanYou still have to check with the gunsmith on the following

1. Does he have a Lapua Reamer for the 22/250 AI-there is a difference, IF you want to use Lapua
brass

2. Does he have a reamer with zero freebore or .020 freebore

don't compromise on either of these two!!! I can not stress this enough!

Ideal is to have the 50g Ballistic tip with the base of the bullet at the shoulder neck junction. This will put the 55g Ballistic tip just slightly below the shoulder neck junction. The 60g shoots Bug HOles Suffed down in the case with win 760...tiny, tiny groups. A 60g Berger at 3700 is wicked ugly on rock chucks and coyotes, I can only bet the V max is ugly on ugly...I have only worked up loads with them...never brought blood. I shot a bob cat in half with only a small gut string holding the two halves together on a hundred yard shot with 60g Berger at 3700. Had to make a shoulder mount out of that front half.

I will have to ask the gunsmith what reamers he has. They are Savage pre-fit barrel from Criterion (CBI).

Is Lapua brass and the 22-250 AI a special circumstance with regard to the brass being large? I run Lapua brass in my .260 with no trouble.
 
I've shot 22-250 lapua brass out of a factory rem 700 with no issues, no neck turning or anything, but ackleyman is still right. Ask the questions to be sure.
 
Factory chambers are on the std SAAMI spec, most custom chambers are close to minimum.

You should check with Criterion on this. It is usually up to the customer to inform the gunsmith prior to having his rifle chambered if he wants a chamber large enough for Lapua brass.
 
Interesting on the Lapua brass. I use it in my .20-250. But, the lot I have, is pre-production. The US importer sent me a bunch of it for evaluation before it became available to the public. It's not enough different in dimension from Winchester brass to be worth mentioning. Newer, production lots, may be?

I know back when the world was young and I had my first .22BR built, at that particular time there just wasn't any Lapua BR brass around, but plenty of Norma to be had. The Norma was a good .004 smaller at the web, so a chamber cut proper for the Norma, couldn't use Lapua.

Anyway... I had mine built for the Norma and it worked out fantastically well. I did finally find some Lapua BR cases and bought them, just to be sure, but, they would not fit my tight Norma chamber. Another year or two went by and I built a second .22BR, this time for Lapua brass. Bought a thousand pieces, first, to check dimensions before having the barrel chambered. Well, I'll be go to he!! but the new lot of Lapua was the same size as the old Norma and fit my old chamber just fine. So I had the new one cut with the same smaller "Norma" reamer.

All of this, to make this simple point. Buy the brass first! Measure it, compare it, then decide on chamber/reamer dimensions. If you're getting down to the nitty gritty picky picky like I always did when building a rifle, a couple thousandths here or there make a big difference and it pays to have your brass on hand as the first step in the build. Almost every rifle I ever had made, I had enough of the selected brass, from a single lot, on hand to wear the barrel out as the first step.

- DAA
 
Just got off the phone with Criterion. The gentleman told me their reamer is .255 at the neck and they have .060 of freebore. He mentioned I would more than likely be ok with these specs shooting 50-77 gr bullets. Does this sound right?
 
I'd say no thanks to .060 freebore. .255 neck is pretty sloppy too. Sounds mass produced. Not custom. When I pay to have a barrel chambered, I tell the guy doing it what those dimensions are going to be, not the other way around!

- DAA
 
With a custom I usually only want .002-.003 larger od on my reamer than my brass neck size.
What your talking at .255 is roughly .006 larger than most 22-250 brass necks. Like DAA said check your brass and go from there.
 
This is not a custom barrel. It is a mass-produced Savage Prefit. I have one in .260 and it has been a phenomenal barrel in terms of accuracy for me. At this point I am not sure I am wanting to spend the money to have a custom barrel made. They will custom cut a chamber to my specs if I ask them to.

If I decide to go the custom cut route, they also suggested I buy the brass first and provide them with the measurements so they can tailor it to my brass.

This has been a very helpful discussion. I want to thank you all again for your knowledge and help as I learn this process.
 
After a while it starts to click; the "ah ha" moment

Pick your bullet and/or brass and build rifle around it, not the other way around and build a rifle and try and make stuff work
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For me I pick bullet as first thing, then brass second and then figure out what it will take to accomplish this. More than once I"ve have Dave Kiff make a reamer for me
 
Originally Posted By: Buster HindendAfter a while it starts to click; the "ah ha" moment

Pick your bullet and/or brass and build rifle around it, not the other way around and build a rifle and try and make stuff work
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For me I pick bullet as first thing, then brass second and then figure out what it will take to accomplish this. More than once I"ve have Dave Kiff make a reamer for me



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"If I decide to go the custom cut route, they also suggested I buy the brass first and provide them with the measurements so they can tailor it to my brass.

This has been a very helpful discussion. I want to thank you all again for your knowledge and help as I learn this process."

This is going way overboard on providing them the brass and measurements. Buster says he picks the brass, I can not say for sure, but I think that he is picking Lapua brass or normal Rem/Win brass, maybe perhaps Norma which can be HUGE, and then design the reamer around that type of sizes, which can be three different sizes...it is not complicated at all.

Main thing, get that freebore to fit the bullet you want to shoot within reason. There is usually a compromise between a long and short bullet, and this does leade to shorter barrel life if you end up wanting to shoot the shorter bullet.

WE all have to learn this usually the hard way, hope you can save a bunch of money and aggravation and do it the right way the first time.

Remember, bullets can only "jump" so far to engage the lands before they will get started crooked. For this reason, designing the throat dia .0003-.0005 over bullet dia is critical in keeping the bullet straight if/when you do start getting a lot of bullet jump.

P.O. Ackley thought that the throat dia may be more important than the amount of freebore in some circumstances.
 
This got me thinking...I know a long range rifle is a system with many different components working together to form accuracy...With that being said, what is the most important component? It seems like a person can spend a LOT of money on a custom rifle. At what point do you start to see diminishing marginal returns? $3,000, $4,000, $8,000 (not including optic)?

I've been thinking about having a custom gun built based off a Rem 700 action (Badger, Stiller, etc...action). These are not cheap as you all know.

So here's the real question, would I get the same performance out of my Savage action if I were to pay to have a custom reamer made for a barrel based on a specific bullet with custom free-bore etc...? In other words, how much is precision accuracy attributed to the chamber, the action, combo of both??? Is the most precision/accuracy squeezed out of a "perfectly" built chamber or a combination of a chamber/action?

Gun would be used for long-range precision shooting.
 
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The barrel is the biggie. The most perfect chambering job possible isn't going to save a turd barrel. But of course, you DO want a perfect chambering job - that's what will get your bullet started down the barrel concentrically. A poor chambering job will ruin a great barrel.

Screw a great barrel with a perfect chambering job onto a run of the mill garden variety bolt action and you'll have great accuracy. If the action is more concentric, more rigid and more uniform in it's harmonics than average, that will all contribute to the really fine edge, world beating, world record potential level of accuracy.

Bedding needs to be perfectly stress free for all of the above to reach their potential.

Scope mount also needs to be stress free and of course the scope needs to be mechanically sound.

All that's left at that point, is to use excellent bullets with the absolute minimum of jacket thickness runout to minimize CG offset, load them in a fashion that does nothing to decrease concentricity or increase CG offset and you'll have a setup that will print bugholes with monotonoous regularity.

- DAA
 
Solid information from all the previous posts. In the case of the precut barrels the biggest challenge may be getting accurate answers to the questions that you've learned about here. If you can swing to bucks, I would recommend going with a top end barrel put in the hands of a good accuracy gunsmith. That offers the greatest probability of success.
 
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