Timing an action?
- Thread starter pyscodog
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ninehorses
New member
Can be as simple as the bolt unlocking and starting the extraction process as it should. On a Remington 700, sometimes a gunsmith has to reposition the bolt handle to get the cams to work like they are designed.
Reserve about 2 hours sometime and give Dan Armstrong at accu-tig a call. He's got that stuff down. Also, for fun, tally up the amount of times he says "change your trigger pull in excess of 3/4 of a pound during the conversation. He's a little redundant but very wise.... And he will be happy to help with your timing issues.
Varminterror
New member
It can't be that complicated to need 2hrs to explain?
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
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Varminterror
New member
I'm gonna say he just didn't want to build on that action. It's not prohibitively expensive to correct timing, knock the bolt handle off, mark the position of the lug disengagement, TIG in place.
Or maybe he bought a take-off action and a different bolt and was planning to do a kitchen-table-gunsmith job on it, and he isn't willing to TIG himself? Heck, even getting a new bolt isn't THAT expensive or difficult.
Doesn't add up in my book.
Or maybe he bought a take-off action and a different bolt and was planning to do a kitchen-table-gunsmith job on it, and he isn't willing to TIG himself? Heck, even getting a new bolt isn't THAT expensive or difficult.
Doesn't add up in my book.
Originally Posted By: VarminterrorIt can't be that complicated to need 2hrs to explain?
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
Unless you just want to be rude and hang up on him.... You'll need 2 hours. Don't plan on getting a word in edgewise either.
What you said is absolutely correct. Dan just has a lot of wind.
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
Unless you just want to be rude and hang up on him.... You'll need 2 hours. Don't plan on getting a word in edgewise either.
What you said is absolutely correct. Dan just has a lot of wind.
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Originally Posted By: CZ527Reserve about 2 hours sometime and give Dan Armstrong at accu-tig a call. He's got that stuff down. Also, for fun, tally up the amount of times he says "change your trigger pull in excess of 3/4 of a pound during the conversation. He's a little redundant but very wise.... And he will be happy to help with your timing issues.
I don't know this cat but I have to say this...if it takes him 2 hours to tell anyone what bolt timing is then he aint just redundant, he is repeating multiple times the same thing over and over!!! Ninehorses nailed it in a few seconds!!!!!
I don't know this cat but I have to say this...if it takes him 2 hours to tell anyone what bolt timing is then he aint just redundant, he is repeating multiple times the same thing over and over!!! Ninehorses nailed it in a few seconds!!!!!
Originally Posted By: VarminterrorI'm gonna say he just didn't want to build on that action. It's not prohibitively expensive to correct timing, knock the bolt handle off, mark the position of the lug disengagement, TIG in place.
Or maybe he bought a take-off action and a different bolt and was planning to do a kitchen-table-gunsmith job on it, and he isn't willing to TIG himself? Heck, even getting a new bolt isn't THAT expensive or difficult.
Doesn't add up in my book.
Mine either as bolt timing has absolutely zero effect on accuracy. Build the gun, see if it's what you want and correct it when you feel like it, or not...a great many 700's as well as other bolt rifles leave the factories with less then ideal, some way less than ideal bolt timing and never get corrected and work okay. Should it be right???...yes, perfect is even better. Does it have to be right???....very few are!!!!
Or maybe he bought a take-off action and a different bolt and was planning to do a kitchen-table-gunsmith job on it, and he isn't willing to TIG himself? Heck, even getting a new bolt isn't THAT expensive or difficult.
Doesn't add up in my book.
Mine either as bolt timing has absolutely zero effect on accuracy. Build the gun, see if it's what you want and correct it when you feel like it, or not...a great many 700's as well as other bolt rifles leave the factories with less then ideal, some way less than ideal bolt timing and never get corrected and work okay. Should it be right???...yes, perfect is even better. Does it have to be right???....very few are!!!!
Varminterror
New member
Originally Posted By: CZ527Originally Posted By: VarminterrorIt can't be that complicated to need 2hrs to explain?
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
Unless you just want to be rude and hang up on him.... You'll need 2 hours. Don't plan on getting a word in edgewise either.
What you said is absolutely correct. Dan just has a lot of wind.
So do I... If I call him, I better reserve 4hrs! ;-)
The camming face on the bolt handle has to be timed such that it engages the receiver camming lug at the same time that the locking lugs disengage. That gives you the opportunity to generate additional primary extraction force while opening the bolt handle. Relative to the bolt body (locking lugs and extractor), if the bolt handle is rotated too far counter clockwise (as viewed from rear), then you'll be fighting the lugs when unlocking the bolt, so it either won't unlock, or it'll be stiff even when empty. If the handle is rotated too far clockwise, then the camming lugs won't make contact - you won't gain any camming force for primary extraction, so you have pull the entirety of the extraction by hand (secondary ex). Just a matter of placing the bolt handle such that it makes contact on the cam exactly as the corner of the lug clears the receiver lug. At the same time, the cocking piece has to be 'timed' also such that you don't get a doubling effect from cocking and primary extraction all at once, else it'll feel unnecessarily stiff. So cocking can happen first while the lugs are still engaged, then as the lugs slip off of the corner, you hit primary extraction.
Pretty simple process.
Unless you just want to be rude and hang up on him.... You'll need 2 hours. Don't plan on getting a word in edgewise either.
What you said is absolutely correct. Dan just has a lot of wind.
So do I... If I call him, I better reserve 4hrs! ;-)
Here is Longrifles Inc.'s description of the process: http://www.longriflesinc.com/tig.html
Originally Posted By: NdIndySounds like of those if it aint broke... situations.
Well, no not really...I realize that I kind of made it sound that way in my posts. It is definitely better all the way around if it is perfect. I think the point, as it applies to this case is that it is one of those things you can do to a bolt gun after you barrel and shoot it to see if it is going to perform. Unlike say a muzzle crown, which must be correct if you are to test the performance/accuracy of a given rifle. Now, at the same time, you could feasibly leave it go, depending on just how far out of whack it is. If it's not too bad then no big deal, go ahead and break in the barrel if you want to. The fact that timing the bolt does not affect headspace or lock time or accuracy allows some leeway. I wouldn't "not proceed" with a build until it was done, I would build and test, then go back and take care of it if I liked and decided the rifle was a keeper.
The word "timing" implies that, like a timing belt in an engine, it has to be dead on or the thing wont run...but that is not the case. In fact, it is one of those things where when you don't fully understand it, you can imagine or assign high priority need to correct. Then once you learn what it really is and see how factory rifles are typically less than ideal, you say. "oh, yeah. That...no big deal, I'll fix it later."
Now, what someone could possibly talk about it and say for 2 hours???? That is another story. There is just not that much to it.
Well, no not really...I realize that I kind of made it sound that way in my posts. It is definitely better all the way around if it is perfect. I think the point, as it applies to this case is that it is one of those things you can do to a bolt gun after you barrel and shoot it to see if it is going to perform. Unlike say a muzzle crown, which must be correct if you are to test the performance/accuracy of a given rifle. Now, at the same time, you could feasibly leave it go, depending on just how far out of whack it is. If it's not too bad then no big deal, go ahead and break in the barrel if you want to. The fact that timing the bolt does not affect headspace or lock time or accuracy allows some leeway. I wouldn't "not proceed" with a build until it was done, I would build and test, then go back and take care of it if I liked and decided the rifle was a keeper.
The word "timing" implies that, like a timing belt in an engine, it has to be dead on or the thing wont run...but that is not the case. In fact, it is one of those things where when you don't fully understand it, you can imagine or assign high priority need to correct. Then once you learn what it really is and see how factory rifles are typically less than ideal, you say. "oh, yeah. That...no big deal, I'll fix it later."
Now, what someone could possibly talk about it and say for 2 hours???? That is another story. There is just not that much to it.