.223 1" in 12 twist bolt action opinions

Lange

New member
Hi all!,

I am looking into a .223 bolt action to compliment my 1 in 9 twist bolt action(Rem 700 VTR), to be more for the lightweight varmint rounds whereas my VTR is a more all around gun to include varmint. I have a T/C venture in .204 and I like .223s alot so figure help round out my collection and cover some more uses:)

I want something different than I have and T/C only just has the venture really, and Remington is my fav bolt manufacture. However i'd like to look into something 6-700$ dollar range on the high end, and lower just no bargin basements like a Axis or American please. Also not need any upgrades or replacement stocks etc which generally add a few hundred or so to the bill.

Thinking of things like:

Remington Model 7 Predator(same kind of gun as the Venture I already have but I hear is a nice light accurate rifle, stock works well to not need upgrade. I honestly considered this for the .204 but they discontinued that chambering. )

Rem 700 SPS Varmint: Is also a good value but has another cheaper synthetic stock like my VTR. Which I left the VTR stock not to mess with it and its ok on that but not sure about another rifle stocked that way and not wanting to shell out extra $ for a stock. Plus heavy long barrel?

700 VLS?

Other than that and the Model 7 thats probably it for Remmy.

I know a lot of "Varmint" rifles have those long 26" bull barrels and I just feel its unneeded on a .223 past 22-24 inch .223 has no benefit in velocity from my research.

I would also consider the vanguard varmint special but they switched to 9 twist.

I know Savage is also a consideration, but they dont seem to have anything to fit the bill either thats much different than Remmy.

Tikka Varmint not really sure.

Thanks look forward to responses. If you have any of these rifles please describe, also especially curious about the model 7 predator:)
 
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Not sure why you would even bother with a slow twist. You can run light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Why limit yourself? The tikka varmint is 1 in 9 twist I believe. It seems a waste of money to go with slow twists nowadays.
 
People forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.
 
I have the Remington Model 7 Predator in 223, with the 1-12 twist. It was a very accurate rifle right out of the box, and all I've done to it is to adjust the trigger. It is my go to predator rifle. I shoot only one load out of it, a 50 grain VMax with surplus 846 powder, that chronographs at 3350 fps. I shot several different 223's and never shoot anything heavier than a 55 grain bullet. I am of the opinion that the 223 is at it's optimum performance level with bullets in 50-55 grain range, and a 1-12 twist works well for that. If I see a need to shoot a heavier bullet, I will go up in caliber to a 243.
 
Originally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.


While Rustydust is a wealth of knowledge, and his word is gospel, on this issue Bryan Litz would disagree for the most part. Read the short article in this link, and be certain to read the comment section. Litz addresses the pressure question in the comment section, along with Frank Green from Bartlien barrels.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/02/does-barrel-twist-rate-affect-muzzle-velocity-litz-test/


Bryan Litz
"Jim,
The test directly addresses the question about twist rate and MV which was the intent. Many people have held the belief that twist rate had a dramatic effect on MV. This was proven false. That result has meaning.

Twist rate and pressure is a slightly different question, but it has the same answer. Due to the physics involved, there’s really no mechanism for twist rate alone to affect pressure or MV very much at all.

Propelling the bullet forward takes up 99.4% of the energy. 0.6% of the energy is in rotation. If you increase the twist rate from 1:10″ to 1:8″, you’ve increased the energy in the 0.6% portion of rotation, which subtracts from the 99.4% of forward motion. Point being, the forward motion (99.4%) is not affected much by changing the 0.6% component.

If you’re working up a load for a 1:8″ twist and it shows pressure at a lower MV compared to a 1:10″ twist, then it’s due to something other than twist such as bore/groove diameter, bore finish, fouling state, etc. In other words, the twist rate is not the causal element in making more pressure. The point of deliberate scientific testing is to isolate variables of interest to determine true causality. It’s important to understand causality because that’s what informs your decisions. It would be a shame if, for example, you chose a slower twist rate than was ideal for your bullet because you had the false belief that you would be giving up velocity (at the same pressure) from the faster twist. You would ultimately be leaving performance on the table because of a false understanding of causality."
 
Originally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyNot sure why you would even bother with a slow twist. You can run light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Why limit yourself? The tikka varmint is 1 in 9 twist I believe. It seems a waste of money to go with slow twists nowadays.

You gotta get your mind right!!!!! He said he already has a 223 and a 204...this means that the only possible excuse to buy another 223 at this point is twist rate differences. If he plays it right he can then make the argument that he needs a 1 in 14 to shoot the really light bullets and another rifle 1 in 7 to shoot the 77 grain pills.
All I can say is..."My man"!!!!!!!
 
I think the Browning A/X Bolt is made with a 1/12" rifling.

I don't mind a slower twist either, just about never go above 55 grains with a 223.
 
Tikka is currently 1/10 twist in .223.
I have purchased Tikka's in 1/8 and 1/12 in earlier models.
Have not been unhappy with any of them and would be fine with 1/12 only for the light bullets I choose.
 
When I first bought my Remington LTR, which comes with a 20 inch 1-9tw barrel, most of what I shot in it was 40gr Nosler BT's driven by a healthy dose of Benchmark powder. Between my dad and I we had a mountain of both and he was using the exact same load in his Vanguard/Howa 20in 1-12tw .223, they shot nearly identical. Shot A LOT of those 40gr BT's for the next few years until I got a wild hair and turned my LTR into a 223 Ack Imp with a new Hart 22 inch 1-9tw. Now all I shoot are the 53Vmax.

The .223 doesn't have the horsepower a lot of the other .22 cal centerfires do so I prefer to use a little more twist in my 223's than if it was say a 22-250.

If a great deal came along on a 223 you liked but it had a 1-9 tube on it, even if all I planned on shooting were the 40's, I wouldn't think twice about buying it.

Not sure what you're exactly looking for but I've got one of these and it's been a great little shooter since it was new. $800 for everything doesn't seem like a bad price considering the gun alone cost $950+

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,176576.0.html

 
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Originally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyOriginally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.


While Rustydust is a wealth of knowledge, and his word is gospel, on this issue Bryan Litz would disagree for the most part. Read the short article in this link, and be certain to read the comment section. Litz addresses the pressure question in the comment section, along with Frank Green from Bartlien barrels.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/02/does-barrel-twist-rate-affect-muzzle-velocity-litz-test/


Bryan Litz
"Jim,
The test directly addresses the question about twist rate and MV which was the intent. Many people have held the belief that twist rate had a dramatic effect on MV. This was proven false. That result has meaning.

Twist rate and pressure is a slightly different question, but it has the same answer. Due to the physics involved, there’s really no mechanism for twist rate alone to affect pressure or MV very much at all.

Propelling the bullet forward takes up 99.4% of the energy. 0.6% of the energy is in rotation. If you increase the twist rate from 1:10″ to 1:8″, you’ve increased the energy in the 0.6% portion of rotation, which subtracts from the 99.4% of forward motion. Point being, the forward motion (99.4%) is not affected much by changing the 0.6% component.

If you’re working up a load for a 1:8″ twist and it shows pressure at a lower MV compared to a 1:10″ twist, then it’s due to something other than twist such as bore/groove diameter, bore finish, fouling state, etc. In other words, the twist rate is not the causal element in making more pressure. The point of deliberate scientific testing is to isolate variables of interest to determine true causality. It’s important to understand causality because that’s what informs your decisions. It would be a shame if, for example, you chose a slower twist rate than was ideal for your bullet because you had the false belief that you would be giving up velocity (at the same pressure) from the faster twist. You would ultimately be leaving performance on the table because of a false understanding of causality."

You're not getting it. The op wants to shoot lighter bullets. He doesn't need a fast twist. With light bullets a 14 or 12" twist is just fine. Through my 14 twist barrels, 55's are very accurate. Even the long 55Blitzkings that some claim won't stabilize in a 14twist.......they shoot tiny groups. Slower twist is less fussy about loads. Mine will shoot most any bullet well.
 
Originally Posted By: AckmanOriginally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyOriginally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.


While Rustydust is a wealth of knowledge, and his word is gospel, on this issue Bryan Litz would disagree for the most part. Read the short article in this link, and be certain to read the comment section. Litz addresses the pressure question in the comment section, along with Frank Green from Bartlien barrels.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/02/does-barrel-twist-rate-affect-muzzle-velocity-litz-test/


Bryan Litz
"Jim,
The test directly addresses the question about twist rate and MV which was the intent. Many people have held the belief that twist rate had a dramatic effect on MV. This was proven false. That result has meaning.

Twist rate and pressure is a slightly different question, but it has the same answer. Due to the physics involved, there’s really no mechanism for twist rate alone to affect pressure or MV very much at all.

Propelling the bullet forward takes up 99.4% of the energy. 0.6% of the energy is in rotation. If you increase the twist rate from 1:10″ to 1:8″, you’ve increased the energy in the 0.6% portion of rotation, which subtracts from the 99.4% of forward motion. Point being, the forward motion (99.4%) is not affected much by changing the 0.6% component.

If you’re working up a load for a 1:8″ twist and it shows pressure at a lower MV compared to a 1:10″ twist, then it’s due to something other than twist such as bore/groove diameter, bore finish, fouling state, etc. In other words, the twist rate is not the causal element in making more pressure. The point of deliberate scientific testing is to isolate variables of interest to determine true causality. It’s important to understand causality because that’s what informs your decisions. It would be a shame if, for example, you chose a slower twist rate than was ideal for your bullet because you had the false belief that you would be giving up velocity (at the same pressure) from the faster twist. You would ultimately be leaving performance on the table because of a false understanding of causality."

You're not getting it. The op wants to shoot lighter bullets. He doesn't need a fast twist. With light bullets a 14 or 12" twist is just fine. Through my 14 twist barrels, 55's are very accurate. Even the long 55Blitzkings that some claim won't stabilize in a 14twist.......they shoot tiny groups. Slower twist is less fussy about loads. Mine will shoot most any bullet well.



No you don't get it. Try the light bullets in the 1-9 twist. I'll bet they shoot.
 
That's not the point. No need for faster twist with light bullets. The 9 twist is unnecessary and a lot fussier about loads. But whatever rings your bell. However, go back and read what the op wants.
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys, i've learned some interesting things so far from you all.

Originally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.

That's a interesting point, my VTR hasn't seemed to like 40 grain pills either. Seems to shoot 45 HPs real well though. This is all factory ammo though but quality factory ammo. The 40's I tried were hornady V-max. Seems like alot of different opinions here on twists and bullet weights but just my experience for far. Thats what lead me to the 1-12 idea, and I understand different rifles may perform differently and its not nessisarily about twist rate.

Originally Posted By: MasterBlasterCheck out my VS 700 Remington
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...FS#Post10549302
MASTERBLASTER

That's a very nice rifle! Was a solid line before Remington discontinued those.

Originally Posted By: msincOriginally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyNot sure why you would even bother with a slow twist. You can run light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Why limit yourself? The tikka varmint is 1 in 9 twist I believe. It seems a waste of money to go with slow twists nowadays.



Originally Posted By: B23When I first bought my Remington LTR, which comes with a 20 inch 1-9tw barrel, most of what I shot in it was 40gr Nosler BT's driven by a healthy dose of Benchmark powder. Between my dad and I we had a mountain of both and he was using the exact same load in his Vanguard/Howa 20in 1-12tw .223, they shot nearly identical. Shot A LOT of those 40gr BT's for the next few years until I got a wild hair and turned my LTR into a 223 Ack Imp with a new Hart 22 inch 1-9tw. Now all I shoot are the 53Vmax.

The .223 doesn't have the horsepower a lot of the other .22 cal centerfires do so I prefer to use a little more twist in my 223's than if it was say a 22-250.

If a great deal came along on a 223 you liked but it had a 1-9 tube on it, even if all I planned on shooting were the 40's, I wouldn't think twice about buying it.

Not sure what you're exactly looking for but I've got one of these and it's been a great little shooter since it was new. $800 for everything doesn't seem like a bad price considering the gun alone cost $950+

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,176576.0.html



Insightful point thanks for the info.

Originally Posted By: AckmanOriginally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyOriginally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.

Very informative and insightful thanks!

Originally Posted By: RustydustPeople forget that fast twist barrels create higher pressures than slower twist barrels do. And quick twist barrels have a shorter life as well. Generally speaking it is best to stick with the slowest twist that will still allow good accuracy with the heaviest bullet that you will be using. I rarely shoot anything heavier than 50 grain bullets (the heaviest being 55 grain) out of any of my .224 bore guns so they all have a 1-14" twist except my CZ 527 American which is a 1-12". I had a 1-9" .223 once but it did not shoot the 40 grain bullets very well but it shot the 50 and heavier just fine. But Idaho ground squirrels really pop when hit with a fast moving 40 so that is what I like to use quite a bit. Were I to build me a long range .224 bore varminter just for VLD bullets then I might have something as tight as a 1-8" twist but I have no plans on doing so. I have killed prairie dogs out past 700 yards with 50 grain bullets out of my .223 AI and they did just fine. I have no reason to want to go to a fast twist for my kind of shooting.


While Rustydust is a wealth of knowledge, and his word is gospel, on this issue Bryan Litz would disagree for the most part. Read the short article in this link, and be certain to read the comment section. Litz addresses the pressure question in the comment section, along with Frank Green from Bartlien barrels.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/02/does-barrel-twist-rate-affect-muzzle-velocity-litz-test/


Bryan Litz
"Jim,
The test directly addresses the question about twist rate and MV which was the intent. Many people have held the belief that twist rate had a dramatic effect on MV. This was proven false. That result has meaning.

Twist rate and pressure is a slightly different question, but it has the same answer. Due to the physics involved, there’s really no mechanism for twist rate alone to affect pressure or MV very much at all.

Propelling the bullet forward takes up 99.4% of the energy. 0.6% of the energy is in rotation. If you increase the twist rate from 1:10″ to 1:8″, you’ve increased the energy in the 0.6% portion of rotation, which subtracts from the 99.4% of forward motion. Point being, the forward motion (99.4%) is not affected much by changing the 0.6% component.

If you’re working up a load for a 1:8″ twist and it shows pressure at a lower MV compared to a 1:10″ twist, then it’s due to something other than twist such as bore/groove diameter, bore finish, fouling state, etc. In other words, the twist rate is not the causal element in making more pressure. The point of deliberate scientific testing is to isolate variables of interest to determine true causality. It’s important to understand causality because that’s what informs your decisions. It would be a shame if, for example, you chose a slower twist rate than was ideal for your bullet because you had the false belief that you would be giving up velocity (at the same pressure) from the faster twist. You would ultimately be leaving performance on the table because of a false understanding of causality."

You're not getting it. The op wants to shoot lighter bullets. He doesn't need a fast twist. With light bullets a 14 or 12" twist is just fine. Through my 14 twist barrels, 55's are very accurate. Even the long 55Blitzkings that some claim won't stabilize in a 14twist.......they shoot tiny groups. Slower twist is less fussy about loads. Mine will shoot most any bullet well.

Yeah with this gun since I have a 1-9 already, I would be looking to mainly shoot light varmint loads for coyote, rock chucks and other small critters. Maybe mess around some with 55 FMJ AR stuff since its cheap, though mainly just do that in my 1 in 9 gun. Any heavier SMK loads and such for target shooting etc I'd just do in the 9.


No you don't get it. Try the light bullets in the 1-9 twist. I'll bet they shoot. Originally Posted By: AckmanThat's not the point. No need for faster twist with light bullets. The 9 twist is unnecessary and a lot fussier about loads. But whatever rings your bell. However, go back and read what the op wants.
Originally Posted By: B23When I first bought my Remington LTR, which comes with a 20 inch 1-9tw barrel, most of what I shot in it was 40gr Nosler BT's driven by a healthy dose of Benchmark powder. Between my dad and I we had a mountain of both and he was using the exact same load in his Vanguard/Howa 20in 1-12tw .223, they shot nearly identical. Shot A LOT of those 40gr BT's for the next few years until I got a wild hair and turned my LTR into a 223 Ack Imp with a new Hart 22 inch 1-9tw. Now all I shoot are the 53Vmax.

The .223 doesn't have the horsepower a lot of the other .22 cal centerfires do so I prefer to use a little more twist in my 223's than if it was say a 22-250.

If a great deal came along on a 223 you liked but it had a 1-9 tube on it, even if all I planned on shooting were the 40's, I wouldn't think twice about buying it.

Not sure what you're exactly looking for but I've got one of these and it's been a great little shooter since it was new. $800 for everything doesn't seem like a bad price considering the gun alone cost $950+

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,176576.0.html



Thats a very good rifle as well, thanks for sharing.
 
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I agree with this. I see no reason why anyone would even consider more than one rifle in the same caliber regardless of the twist.
Sheesh, you already have more than one .223, why not go with a bigbore?

tt2.gif



Originally Posted By: Eugene CanterburyNot sure why you would even bother with a slow twist. You can run light bullets in a fast twist barrel. Why limit yourself? The tikka varmint is 1 in 9 twist I believe. It seems a waste of money to go with slow twists nowadays.
 
Originally Posted By: C.Jay.
Sheesh, you already have more than one .223, why not go with a bigbore?

I agree and I wouldn't even mess around, I'd go straight for the Anzio 20mm.
thumbup.gif
 
Originally Posted By: C.JayI agree with this. I see no reason why anyone would even consider more than one rifle in the same caliber regardless of the twist.
Sheesh, you already have more than one .223, why not go with a bigbore?

tt2.gif


Many people own more than one rifle in the same caliber, different uses and different purposes. .223 is one of the most economical practical calibers out there and I like shooting .223? I do have other calibers too not like im starting a collection with only .223s. I see your point but not really helpful.

 
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Originally Posted By: LangeOriginally Posted By: C.JayI agree with this. I see no reason why anyone would even consider more than one rifle in the same caliber regardless of the twist.
Sheesh, you already have more than one .223, why not go with a bigbore?

tt2.gif


Many people own more than one rifle in the same caliber, different uses and different purposes. .223 is one of the most economical practical calibers out there and I like shooting .223? I do have other calibers too not like im starting a collection with only .223s. I see your point but not really helpful.



Did you also notice the
tt2.gif
? That would indicate satire.
 
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