Am I asking to much

So you are saying A good journeyman carpenter will use any walmart hammer? A good pipefitter will have no Flange-Wizard tools in his tool box?

Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerThe trigger wont change the accuracy of the rifle. With practice there will be no difference from a milspec trigger to a $300 trigger. The spendy triggers just make it easier. I could hold just above .5 MOA and better sometimes with a stock trigger out to 500 yards. Good scope, shooting off sandbags but no rear support.

1-7 twist is a little fast but all my ARs have loved the 69gr SMKs.
 
Well I'm sure a Walshart hammer is much less rugged than a quality hammer so it really has no comparison to a trigger. Most stock triggers aren't going to fall apart.

I never played dungeons and dragons so I don't know what a Flange-Wizard is but I'm sure it has no comparison to a trigger ether.

I understand what high end triggers do, I've shot them, I've shot against them in competitions. I'm not trying to make anyone feel like a fool for spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on triggers, I'm just saying it won't make your gun more accurate and that can not be argued. If you have poor ammo and a Geissele trigger you wont be happy, if you have a Timney and you are jerking the trigger you will not be happy, if you have a Jewell trigger and your scope bases are loose you will not be happy. Practice and good shooting technique will eliminate any need for a spendy trigger.

The high end trigger companies are in business for the same reason Harley Davidson still makes motorcycles and BMWs get sold to grandmas. People like spending $$ on their hobbies to say they have the best of the best.
 
Well, it has nothing to do with dungeons and dragons, sorry for the confusion, thought you might understand the tradesman reference, but based on this and your hammer comment, I was mistaken.

Agreed that a trigger will not make a rifle more accurate, but it will make it shoot more accurately.

Be honest with me here, if you literally had a 50# trigger with 1/4" creep and 1/4" over travel on your favorite rifle, do you think you could shoot it as good as you currently do with your non match factory trigger?

Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerWell I'm sure a Walshart hammer is much less rugged than a quality hammer so it really has no comparison to a trigger. Most stock triggers aren't going to fall apart.

I never played dungeons and dragons so I don't know what a Flange-Wizard is but I'm sure it has no comparison to a trigger ether.

I understand what high end triggers do, I've shot them, I've shot against them in competitions. I'm not trying to make anyone feel like a fool for spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on triggers, I'm just saying it won't make your gun more accurate and that can not be argued. If you have poor ammo and a Geissele trigger you wont be happy, if you have a Timney and you are jerking the trigger you will not be happy, if you have a Jewell trigger and your scope bases are loose you will not be happy. Practice and good shooting technique will eliminate any need for a spendy trigger.

The high end trigger companies are in business for the same reason Harley Davidson still makes motorcycles and BMWs get sold to grandmas. People like spending $$ on their hobbies to say they have the best of the best.
 
Be honest with me here, if you literally had a 50# trigger with 1/4" creep and 1/4" over travel on your favorite rifle, do you think you could shoot it as good as you currently do with your non match factory trigger?



Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerJerry Miculek can hold a better group at 300 yards offhand with a sub compact pistol than the average person could with the highest end rifle.

This is why Jerry runs match grade triggers, correct?????
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Triggers and scopes. Better is better for hitting things more consistently with less effort. We don't use K4's at 1000 and we don't use stock triggers.

I've shot with Jerry a few times over the years. If there was something that could be made smoother and required less attention to get a good shot off in a,hurry it was done on his guns. Those S&W actions darn sure weren't factory. You can't buy points but you can buy better shot to shot performance.

Greg
 
Just my 2 cents here,

But, when i was in the Marines, i shot expert on the range year after year. (it's not that hard)

One year the rifle they handed me at the Armory sounded like a coffee can with rocks in it. I said something to the armor and he said that it's safe. It barely had any blueing left on it.

I went to the range and had one of the worst days ever.. I was getting gas shooting up in my face where the rear of the upper met with the lower, right infront of the stock.
I counted up the score and It wasn't an expert. I called in the Range officer and explained what I thought the issue was. (junk rifle) They had another rifle and let me use it. I shot again, and this rifle was like brand new. super tight, and while both rifles had the exact same parts and triggers in them. I shot almost twice the original score. I had actually qualified as Expert before walking back to the final 500yrd firing stage. So, ya, I think it matters.

 
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Triggers and scopes. Better is better for hitting things more consistently with less effort. We don't use K4's at 1000 and we don't use stock triggers.

You can't buy points but you can buy better shot to shot performance.




Regards,
hm
 

Just happened onto this post and it's pretty evident you guys are beating your head against a Rock....Knocker.

He's the man...... Don't need no stinkin' custom trigger.

 
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Yeah this got run away on something I really dont give a rats a$$ about. I started by trying to say you don't need to spend $200+ on a trigger to shoot an AR under .75 moa and better. It can help, but if the trigger is the only thing changed and groups shrink then the only thing wrong was the shooter.

Simply telling someone to swap their trigger instead of learning fundamentals of shooting and doing rigorous testing of their ammo is not good advice.
 
I once had a winchester 88 in 308. They are known for bad triggers. best I could get the gun to shoot was about 2". I had a gunsmith work the trigger over and I was shooting MOA with a 4x scope at 100 yards. The gunsmith got the trigger much cleaner and down to about 4.5 #'s. I ultimately had no trouble getting 3/4" out of that rifle with a little better scope. YES a trigger is a huge deal. a gritty creepy milspec trigger that alone could be effecting your groups in a big way. get a RRA varmint trigger. keep in mind this is a different trigger than the national match that most people buy. The varmint is an awesome trigger I picked up 2 recently for $62 each when RRA was running a sale. This trigger will help you also shoot alot better in the field as well.
 
Don't go out and buy a new trigger yet..... Work on the current trigger you have. Do what is called a 50 cent trigger job. Mine went from 7lb trigger to 3 lbs.
 
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I suggest a new trigger, you'll appreciate it immediately. Sure you can by with a stock trigger but a nice trigger will be much easier to shoot well.
 
Originally Posted By: Redleg84I suggest a new trigger, you'll appreciate it immediately. Sure you can by with a stock trigger but a nice trigger will be much easier to shoot well.

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You can put all the best components possible in a build and get a great rifle. And all of that can, and likely will, come unraveled with a poor trigger and/or poor optics.
 
With all this talk about your trigger and which one is best, I'm curios to know what barrel you have. Make/manufacturer? There are many barrels out there that are going to be lucky to get 3/4". Even then, one barrel to the next may just not like those bullet/combos and the next will love it. Trying to force a barrel to like a bullet/powder combo is silly.

While I'm in full agreement with the better trigger camp, accuracy boils down to three components in no particular order, IMHO.

Trigger
Barrel
Optics

My .02 FWIW.
 
I agree with jlindholm. There's no reason to put a $200 trigger in a kit gun with a shaw barrel thats only gonna shoot 1.5" anyway. My first AR was a model1sales 20" Hbar and with only a JP yellow spring kit and a Simmons Atec I got it to shoot 1/2 MOA with hand loads. Triggers are nice, and I have at least a RRA NM or better in all my rifles. But there are plently of guys getting it done with less out there.
 
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