First or Second Focal Plane Scope for Varmints?
- Thread starter rcmark
- Start date
kyyotestalker
New member
what target (type of varmint)? what type of shooting/hunting? what distances do you plan to shoot?
All need to be answered when deciding between FFP or SFP.
All need to be answered when deciding between FFP or SFP.
I looked at a vortex with ffp but I didn't like the way the reticle got so thin at low power setting. It seemed to me that in low light I would want to be on a low power and that is when I would want a thick reticle rather than thin. I like the idea of ffp if only the reticle would stay the same. Can't have your cake and eat it too. I have never used a ffp scope so I don't have any real exp with one. JMHO
The reticle not staying the same is the whole point to FFP. Not to mention the Mil-Dots on it. That's the purpose...not to have the reticle move up and down, but to have the Mil-Dots do it so they are usable at what ever power you are zoomed to. I don't know of any other reason to have a scope FFP, why were you considering one???? I know you can range with the cross hairs if you know what they subtend to, but that takes a lot of getting used to {as if Mil-Dots don't...} Scopes are not FFP just to see the reticle change as you zoom the scope. Not knowing that, why do you say "FFP looks like the way to go"????
alf
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: rcmarkFirst Focal Plane looks like the way to go.
Opinions?
I prefer 2nd for everything I do.
As stated, to me it's assbackwards to have the reticle get bigger as you go up in power.
With the advent of good rangefinders at affordable prices, the ranging aspect of a FFP scope goes out the window.
Opinions?
I prefer 2nd for everything I do.
As stated, to me it's assbackwards to have the reticle get bigger as you go up in power.
With the advent of good rangefinders at affordable prices, the ranging aspect of a FFP scope goes out the window.
alf
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: Dust I shoot. I miss by 2 mil dots. I zoom in, hold two mildots, hit. If I keep missing by 2 mil dots, I dial that into the scope. Just makes it so much easier.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
FFP with mil-dots is easier to range as stated...but the OP has never said whether or not he is opting for some sort of ranging reticle...he just asked first or second focal plane. He has also never made it clear that he understands the reasoning behind either. It seems like he is trying to figure that out with this post, which is fine and a good way to do it, but level with us and tell us why you are asking....that said I have several of either, personally I prefer a fixed power scope and it's not an issue. Also, I know they can be used to range on varmints, but mil-dots are really not the best way...as posted, today's rangefinders are the way to go. My favorite for varmints is the Leupold Mark4 M1 10x...with a rangefinder it's easy to use come ups with the external turrets.
Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Dust I shoot. I miss by 2 mil dots. I zoom in, hold two mildots, hit. If I keep missing by 2 mil dots, I dial that into the scope. Just makes it so much easier.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
They aren't just reference points. It matters greatly what system those reference points are used in.
What you're describing is a surefire way to miss if you're running a 2nd fp optic and/or you're running a mildot optic with MOA turrets.
If you're running a 2nd FP optic, you can only "dial to the impact and shoot again" if you're zoomed into the scopes designated magnification range, that the "reference points" are calibrated in. Which is usually MAX power, which is usually NOT what most predator hunters are running in a calling scenario.
If your 2FP reticle is calibrated at 16x and you're hunting with it at 5x. You can't just miss by 2 MOA in your scope, and dial 2 MOA to make a hit. It doesn't work that way.
This is where the FFP has an advantage.
Also, if you are running a mil-dot optic, and an MOA or IPHY turret, like a lot of hunting scopes have. (which is absolutely stupid) Even on the designated power, you can't just miss by 2 mil dots in the optic, and dial it into the scope to make a hit. You need to convert mils to moa in order to make a correction, which is why it's VERY important for your reticle and your turrets to be the same system of angular measurement.
I will probably never have another 2nd FP optic, unless it's a cheap rimfire optic, and even then, it's unlikely. For my use, they offer ZERO advantage.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
They aren't just reference points. It matters greatly what system those reference points are used in.
What you're describing is a surefire way to miss if you're running a 2nd fp optic and/or you're running a mildot optic with MOA turrets.
If you're running a 2nd FP optic, you can only "dial to the impact and shoot again" if you're zoomed into the scopes designated magnification range, that the "reference points" are calibrated in. Which is usually MAX power, which is usually NOT what most predator hunters are running in a calling scenario.
If your 2FP reticle is calibrated at 16x and you're hunting with it at 5x. You can't just miss by 2 MOA in your scope, and dial 2 MOA to make a hit. It doesn't work that way.
This is where the FFP has an advantage.
Also, if you are running a mil-dot optic, and an MOA or IPHY turret, like a lot of hunting scopes have. (which is absolutely stupid) Even on the designated power, you can't just miss by 2 mil dots in the optic, and dial it into the scope to make a hit. You need to convert mils to moa in order to make a correction, which is why it's VERY important for your reticle and your turrets to be the same system of angular measurement.
I will probably never have another 2nd FP optic, unless it's a cheap rimfire optic, and even then, it's unlikely. For my use, they offer ZERO advantage.
Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: rcmarkFirst Focal Plane looks like the way to go.
Opinions?
I prefer 2nd for everything I do.
As stated, to me it's assbackwards to have the reticle get bigger as you go up in power.
With the advent of good rangefinders at affordable prices, the ranging aspect of a FFP scope goes out the window.
Range estimation with an optic is practical, but rarely necessary for what we do as hunters...but it has it's place. I have used it, and it works.
I have used 3 different range finders that have the ability to range 1500-2000yds, but in snow, or fog or even rain...they get sketchy and don't always function the way they are suppose to.
However...thats not the most important feature of a FFP optic. The FFP is simply faster...in both hold overs and measuring misses to dial elevation or windage.
The ability to measure distance accurately on ANY power, and translate it into hold over, or dial accordingly, is what gives FFP an advantage. It's not necessary to operate on one specific power to make holds accurate.
For some reason, hunting scopes that incorporate some kind of christmas tree or mildot system...typically use a Mil based reticle and an MOA based turret...which is absolutely foolish to purchase.
I agree, that there is a point where too much zoom range (not too much zoom), means the reticle CAN get too heavy...but that depends solely on the "zoom range" of the optic. An optic like a Bushnell ERS that goes from 3.5-21 is a 6x zoom optic. The reticle is not too fine at 3.5x, and it's not to heavy at 21x...but a 6x zoom range seems to be about the max for offering usable reticle placement at all zoom levels.
The XRS for example, spreads the same reticle out to a 6.66x zoom range, which means that at 30x...the reticle is noticeably heavier than at 21x (almost to the point where it's not usable)
Every zoom range serves a purpose, and with a FFP optic...each zoom range allows you to measure size or distance accurately.
The reticle on a 3.5-21 zoom range (6x) can actually be heavier at 21x than a 5-25x zoom range (5x) at 25x.
Higher top end magnification, doesn't necessarily mean heavier reticle. It depends how small the manufacturer decides to start on the low end.
Opinions?
I prefer 2nd for everything I do.
As stated, to me it's assbackwards to have the reticle get bigger as you go up in power.
With the advent of good rangefinders at affordable prices, the ranging aspect of a FFP scope goes out the window.
Range estimation with an optic is practical, but rarely necessary for what we do as hunters...but it has it's place. I have used it, and it works.
I have used 3 different range finders that have the ability to range 1500-2000yds, but in snow, or fog or even rain...they get sketchy and don't always function the way they are suppose to.
However...thats not the most important feature of a FFP optic. The FFP is simply faster...in both hold overs and measuring misses to dial elevation or windage.
The ability to measure distance accurately on ANY power, and translate it into hold over, or dial accordingly, is what gives FFP an advantage. It's not necessary to operate on one specific power to make holds accurate.
For some reason, hunting scopes that incorporate some kind of christmas tree or mildot system...typically use a Mil based reticle and an MOA based turret...which is absolutely foolish to purchase.
I agree, that there is a point where too much zoom range (not too much zoom), means the reticle CAN get too heavy...but that depends solely on the "zoom range" of the optic. An optic like a Bushnell ERS that goes from 3.5-21 is a 6x zoom optic. The reticle is not too fine at 3.5x, and it's not to heavy at 21x...but a 6x zoom range seems to be about the max for offering usable reticle placement at all zoom levels.
The XRS for example, spreads the same reticle out to a 6.66x zoom range, which means that at 30x...the reticle is noticeably heavier than at 21x (almost to the point where it's not usable)
Every zoom range serves a purpose, and with a FFP optic...each zoom range allows you to measure size or distance accurately.
The reticle on a 3.5-21 zoom range (6x) can actually be heavier at 21x than a 5-25x zoom range (5x) at 25x.
Higher top end magnification, doesn't necessarily mean heavier reticle. It depends how small the manufacturer decides to start on the low end.
Wyoming Winchester
Member
I am shooting the Leupold VXIII 8-20,in the VARMINT HUNTER RECITAL. The instructions have you know your velocity, and dial the power accordingly to their calculations for your fps. When zeroed to, 200yds. The center cross hair will be accurate out to that distance, at any power. Targets out say 300 and more require the power to be set at that set figure to hold dead on. I'm I correct on this being a SFP scope? I'm looking for another scope and am investigating this topic..
alf
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: cbass16Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Dust I shoot. I miss by 2 mil dots. I zoom in, hold two mildots, hit. If I keep missing by 2 mil dots, I dial that into the scope. Just makes it so much easier.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
They aren't just reference points. It matters greatly what system those reference points are used in.
What you're describing is a surefire way to miss if you're running a 2nd fp optic and/or you're running a mildot optic with MOA turrets.
If you're running a 2nd FP optic, you can only "dial to the impact and shoot again" if you're zoomed into the scopes designated magnification range, that the "reference points" are calibrated in. Which is usually MAX power, which is usually NOT what most predator hunters are running in a calling scenario.
If your 2FP reticle is calibrated at 16x and you're hunting with it at 5x. You can't just miss by 2 MOA in your scope, and dial 2 MOA to make a hit. It doesn't work that way.
This is where the FFP has an advantage.
Also, if you are running a mil-dot optic, and an MOA or IPHY turret, like a lot of hunting scopes have. (which is absolutely stupid) Even on the designated power, you can't just miss by 2 mil dots in the optic, and dial it into the scope to make a hit. You need to convert mils to moa in order to make a correction, which is why it's VERY important for your reticle and your turrets to be the same system of angular measurement.
I will probably never have another 2nd FP optic, unless it's a cheap rimfire optic, and even then, it's unlikely. For my use, they offer ZERO advantage.
I don't ever try to measure or convert anything, I shoot, spot the miss, and dial to the impact.
Makes absolutely zero difference what power I'm on.
They're just a reference point, you can make the exact same case for a MOA based reticle.
Matters little to me what "dimension " I miss by. Dial to the impact and shoot again.
They aren't just reference points. It matters greatly what system those reference points are used in.
What you're describing is a surefire way to miss if you're running a 2nd fp optic and/or you're running a mildot optic with MOA turrets.
If you're running a 2nd FP optic, you can only "dial to the impact and shoot again" if you're zoomed into the scopes designated magnification range, that the "reference points" are calibrated in. Which is usually MAX power, which is usually NOT what most predator hunters are running in a calling scenario.
If your 2FP reticle is calibrated at 16x and you're hunting with it at 5x. You can't just miss by 2 MOA in your scope, and dial 2 MOA to make a hit. It doesn't work that way.
This is where the FFP has an advantage.
Also, if you are running a mil-dot optic, and an MOA or IPHY turret, like a lot of hunting scopes have. (which is absolutely stupid) Even on the designated power, you can't just miss by 2 mil dots in the optic, and dial it into the scope to make a hit. You need to convert mils to moa in order to make a correction, which is why it's VERY important for your reticle and your turrets to be the same system of angular measurement.
I will probably never have another 2nd FP optic, unless it's a cheap rimfire optic, and even then, it's unlikely. For my use, they offer ZERO advantage.
I don't ever try to measure or convert anything, I shoot, spot the miss, and dial to the impact.
Makes absolutely zero difference what power I'm on.
Originally Posted By: Wyoming WinchesterI am shooting the Leupold VXIII 8-20,in the VARMINT HUNTER RECITAL. The instructions have you know your velocity, and dial the power accordingly to their calculations for your fps. When zeroed to, 200yds. The center cross hair will be accurate out to that distance, at any power. Targets out say 300 and more require the power to be set at that set figure to hold dead on. I'm I correct on this being a SFP scope? I'm looking for another scope and am investigating this topic..
Yes, that is a 2FP optic with a BDC reticle.
Yes, that is a 2FP optic with a BDC reticle.
anthonyinva
Member
2nd is my choice, the cross hairs are too small to see on a 1st at low power. Only benefit of 1st is fast range estimation in my opinion.
I love and use both. Doesn't matter much to me. I love the math applying SFP for rangefinding and downrange zeroing. IMO it's fun to play with. I'm using tree reticle systems for about all of my varmint shooting, either repeating subtension or not, and wouldn't buy another optic without it, since nothing else is faster for me. I've come to appreciate a matching turret to reticle somewhat but i still use some that aren't and get by fine. For most of my shooting I still use SFP.
DukeDurham
New member
Please take this for what you paid for it....
I see no reason NOT to hunt or any other shooting in general
With a weapon that uses an optic in other than first focal plane. The pros outweigh the cons in my humble opinion, as long as we are talking all features EXCEPT price. One caveat I will mention here; if you(the OP) decide to try a ffp optic, get the turrets that match the subtentions of the reticle you prefer. That is, if you like the looks of an MOA type reticle get 1/4 or maybe even 1/8 MOA knobs depending on how fine of an adjustment you'd like. Remember this, and this is mostly true for all optics, the finer the adjustment of the knobs the less OVERALL total adjustment range you'll have useable without resorting to having a canted base to add useable range. Conversely, match MIL knobs and reticle. Take my word for it, you'll be miles ahead and glad you did. From there, it's all academic, meaning learning to range targets w/o a range finder and doing the math to get your firing solution. Or, watching for splash of a Miss and holding off for a quick follow up. THATS when the true appreciation of a ffp optic becomes apparent.
I see no reason NOT to hunt or any other shooting in general
With a weapon that uses an optic in other than first focal plane. The pros outweigh the cons in my humble opinion, as long as we are talking all features EXCEPT price. One caveat I will mention here; if you(the OP) decide to try a ffp optic, get the turrets that match the subtentions of the reticle you prefer. That is, if you like the looks of an MOA type reticle get 1/4 or maybe even 1/8 MOA knobs depending on how fine of an adjustment you'd like. Remember this, and this is mostly true for all optics, the finer the adjustment of the knobs the less OVERALL total adjustment range you'll have useable without resorting to having a canted base to add useable range. Conversely, match MIL knobs and reticle. Take my word for it, you'll be miles ahead and glad you did. From there, it's all academic, meaning learning to range targets w/o a range finder and doing the math to get your firing solution. Or, watching for splash of a Miss and holding off for a quick follow up. THATS when the true appreciation of a ffp optic becomes apparent.
Zastava223rem
Member
I run a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP MRAD on my .223 Remington main varmint rig. I set it up to shoot out to around 500 yds on small targets like groundhogs. The FFP can be both a hindrance and a help. I like that no matter what power im on, the measurements in the cross hairs can be used to adjust turrets for misses. Say you hold dead on and see bullet splash near the 2 mil hash on the right. You dont have to worry about it being on the highest power, you either just hold 2 mils left or you use the turret to correct for it. On the other hand, the reticle gets pretty thick at anything above 20x. It almost covers a groundhogs head at 400 yds. If i could do it again, id go SFP for this specific rifle.