223 to 204?

Originally Posted By: ICU22-250I just watched a video of making the 20 practical out of 223, so you have to size the brass twice with two different bushing sizes? He also uses the 223 seater die, I'm guessing this is how your making your brass Greg..

I start with a gutted 223 de and then a bushing to finish. It can be done with a single bushing sizing but this makes it a tad easier. I load quite a few 223 necked down chamberings so this gives me the equivalent of a BASIC brass to work with. Of course cranking the gutted ones and what sized down ones I want through a 650 is very fast. On my turret it takes a tad longer.

If you don't want bushings I know that CH4D will make up a standard style sizing die for you also. 223 in 20 PRACTICAL out. They do one for the 6X6.8 and 22X6.8 to our specifications so the 20 PRAC is a cakewalk. I suspect that Redding can do that also. I own a set of standard style Redding 20 TACTICAL dies so it shouldn't be much of a jump for them to knock one out. I just use a 223 Type S bushing die on mine once the cases are formed up the first time with my final bushing. I use the same die for 223 and 6X45 also.

You can seat with a 223 but this leaves the neck doing all the straightening as the bullet can squirrel around as you are not giving it any side support. A 20 caliber will encase the bullet and keep everything much straighter according to my use of run out gages. Also a 20 seater would let you crimp if you so desire.

Feel free to ask away on this one anytime.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: R JohnsonOriginally Posted By: steve garrettI kinda feel bad about hijacking the thread, but I was board and wanted to kick the ant pile, ok I admit it. GLS you do realize the nato spec for 5.56 is very close to the number I suggested?? further do you know that other cartridges are rated for this pressure? You telling me I am too dangerous is the same as telling everyone that has loaded 223 till they see pressure signs as being unsafe and going to put their eye out. flattened primers is usually approaching 70kpsi. I am well aware that speed most of the time doesn't produce the best accuracy. my solution is build your gun with the best parts you can find in particular the barrel and your more likely to have a load that shoots to your accuracy expectation AND is fast.

there is a generally accepted 1/4 rule, for example increase case compacity 10 % expect a 2.5% increase in speed at the same pressures. so in the case of the 6.8 case it holds 5 more grains of powder roughly 16% expect a 4% increase in speed, this is typically going to be around a 150 fps increase in speed when compared to a 223 case. you telling me how dangerous I am being but you advocate wildly increased speeds with your 6x6.8 loadings. for the record I have no problem with this, but don't turn around and say OMG loading a 223 case to 65 grand is going to put your eye out and threaten other people at the range. GLS you still have much to learn.


Garrett If I were you I would stop with your diarrhea of the keyboard. You haven't a clue what your talking about and it's making you look worse every time you start typing. Kicking the ant pile as you called it, is both childish as well as idiotic.

You read pressure by reading primers? What happens if you use a soft primer like a Federal compared to a hard primer like Remington 7 1/2? With the same exact powder charge, you will get two very different looking primers. So which one is over maximum?

You also don't have a clue about the 6X6.8. Have you ever even shot one? In reality you probably haven't shot enough ammo in the last year to equal what I spent just on strain gauges PRESSURE TESTING the 6X6.8 I can tell you what the pressures are in the 6X6.8 not like you with your 223. Using the theory of just add a little more powder and shoot it to see what happens is ludicrous. Kind of like telling Greg he has a lot to learn. I will say Greg has forgot more than you have proven to know by your previous posts.



what about what I have said is wrong SPECIFICALLY. your saying that I can't tell how much pressure I have by looking at primers, further you imply that reloaders can't read pressure signs by looking at cases. is that what your saying?? I know there are tons of variables I know primers are harder than others the whole bit, I even know that in some cases YES you can't tell my looking at the cases. I have a bat machine 243 ai built by greg tannel you can't tell its running too much pressure by looking at the cases. however you can tell by how fast the primers pockets get loose. HOWEVER most of the time you can get an idea whats going on by looking at the cases AND watching whats going on with the chronograph. I thought this was simply the traits of a smart handloader. or is it diarrhea and everyone else is wrong.

why don't you address the 4/1 rule, is it wrong, is your opinion different?? does your pressure testing say otherwise?? its easy to throw around diarrhea this or that, but you want to through out generalities. the fact is the 6.8 case holds about 16% more volume you can't escape case compacity. thats going to mean roughly 4% more speed that a 223 case. I simply bring this up because GLS is telling me 65 grand is too hard to push a 223 and responding to his put my eye out type comments, when I feel the loads he throws around for his 6x6.8 are well beyond normal pressure limits.
 

its easy to throw around diarrhea this or that,

I just wanted to point out that this is not true. It's like going to a restaurant and trying to grab a handful of soup and tossing it at the waiter.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: R JohnsonOriginally Posted By: steve garrettI kinda feel bad about hijacking the thread, but I was board and wanted to kick the ant pile, ok I admit it. GLS you do realize the nato spec for 5.56 is very close to the number I suggested?? further do you know that other cartridges are rated for this pressure? You telling me I am too dangerous is the same as telling everyone that has loaded 223 till they see pressure signs as being unsafe and going to put their eye out. flattened primers is usually approaching 70kpsi. I am well aware that speed most of the time doesn't produce the best accuracy. my solution is build your gun with the best parts you can find in particular the barrel and your more likely to have a load that shoots to your accuracy expectation AND is fast.

there is a generally accepted 1/4 rule, for example increase case compacity 10 % expect a 2.5% increase in speed at the same pressures. so in the case of the 6.8 case it holds 5 more grains of powder roughly 16% expect a 4% increase in speed, this is typically going to be around a 150 fps increase in speed when compared to a 223 case. you telling me how dangerous I am being but you advocate wildly increased speeds with your 6x6.8 loadings. for the record I have no problem with this, but don't turn around and say OMG loading a 223 case to 65 grand is going to put your eye out and threaten other people at the range. GLS you still have much to learn.


Garrett If I were you I would stop with your diarrhea of the keyboard. You haven't a clue what your talking about and it's making you look worse every time you start typing. Kicking the ant pile as you called it, is both childish as well as idiotic.

You read pressure by reading primers? What happens if you use a soft primer like a Federal compared to a hard primer like Remington 7 1/2? With the same exact powder charge, you will get two very different looking primers. So which one is over maximum?

You also don't have a clue about the 6X6.8. Have you ever even shot one? In reality you probably haven't shot enough ammo in the last year to equal what I spent just on strain gauges PRESSURE TESTING the 6X6.8 I can tell you what the pressures are in the 6X6.8 not like you with your 223. Using the theory of just add a little more powder and shoot it to see what happens is ludicrous. Kind of like telling Greg he has a lot to learn. I will say Greg has forgot more than you have proven to know by your previous posts.



what about what I have said is wrong SPECIFICALLY. your saying that I can't tell how much pressure I have by looking at primers, further you imply that reloaders can't read pressure signs by looking at cases. is that what your saying?? I know there are tons of variables I know primers are harder than others the whole bit, I even know that in some cases YES you can't tell my looking at the cases. I have a bat machine 243 ai built by greg tannel you can't tell its running too much pressure by looking at the cases. however you can tell by how fast the primers pockets get loose. HOWEVER most of the time you can get an idea whats going on by looking at the cases AND watching whats going on with the chronograph. I thought this was simply the traits of a smart handloader. or is it diarrhea and everyone else is wrong.

why don't you address the 4/1 rule, is it wrong, is your opinion different?? does your pressure testing say otherwise?? its easy to throw around diarrhea this or that, but you want to through out generalities. the fact is the 6.8 case holds about 16% more volume you can't escape case compacity. thats going to mean roughly 4% more speed that a 223 case. I simply bring this up because GLS is telling me 65 grand is too hard to push a 223 and responding to his put my eye out type comments, when I feel the loads he throws around for his 6x6.8 are well beyond normal pressure limits.

GLS has made some very good points, Garrett maybe you should just stop before you get to far behind.


 
when the argument is lost simply throw insults rather than debate the merits. that and lets all form a pack that way the pack isn't wrong. bobtails I guess you just follow what the pack says, loyal pack member I suppose.
 
lets see first it was, OMG the 204 has such higher BC bullets, no one wanted to admit its only .6" flatter shooting at 300 yards against a 223 with the same weight bullets.

then it was I am going to put my eye out over loading a 223. its nothing personal, I am laughing as I type this, If I met all you guys in person I would laugh about all this. anyways have a good day, seriously.
 
Since most guys shoot 204's for the 32 and 40 gr bullets, I ran the 40 Vmax .204 from the ballistic library in my shooters app. I then took the same velocity but switched out to a .224 40 gr Vmax and my phone shows -1.24" difference at 300 yards between the two 40 gr bullets even at the same speed which becomes -3.82 difference at 400

 
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the 204
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3714.2 3.327 1225.1 0.000 0.0 ***
100 0.8 0.8 0.9 0.8 3307.4 2.962 971.4 0.086 15.1 14.4
200 -0.0 -0.0 3.6 1.7 2937.1 2.631 766.1 0.182 32.0 15.3
300 -4.9 -1.6 8.5 2.7 2596.3 2.326 598.6 0.291 51.1 16.3
400 -15.0 -3.6 16.0 3.8 2280.1 2.042 461.7 0.414 72.8 17.4
500 -31.8 -6.1 26.6 5.1 1986.5 1.779 350.4 0.555 97.7 18.7
600 -57.5 -9.2 41.0 6.5 1717.4 1.538 261.9 0.717 126.3 20.1
700 -95.1 -13.0 59.9 8.2 1478.0 1.324 194.0 0.906 159.4 21.7
800 -148.7 -17.7 84.2 10.1 1276.7 1.144 144.7 1.125 197.9 23.6
900 -223.7 -23.7 114.2 12.1 1124.4 1.007 112.3 1.376 242.1 25.7
1000 -326.1 -31.1 149.4 14.3 1022.0 0.915 92.8 1.657 291.6 27.8
14/05/15 18:46, JBM/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi


for 223
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 3717.4 3.330 1227.2 0.000 0.0 ***
100 0.9 0.9 1.1 1.0 3225.1 2.889 923.6 0.087 15.3 14.6
200 -0.0 -0.0 4.5 2.1 2784.9 2.494 688.7 0.187 32.9 15.7
300 -5.5 -1.7 10.8 3.4 2385.3 2.136 505.3 0.303 53.4 17.0
400 -17.1 -4.1 20.6 4.9 2020.1 1.809 362.4 0.440 77.4 18.5
500 -37.3 -7.1 35.0 6.7 1691.0 1.515 253.9 0.602 106.0 20.2
600 -69.9 -11.1 55.1 8.8 1407.6 1.261 176.0 0.797 140.3 22.3
700 -120.1 -16.4 81.9 11.2 1186.5 1.063 125.0 1.030 181.3 24.7
800 -195.0 -23.3 115.4 13.8 1042.0 0.933 96.4 1.301 229.0 27.3
900 -301.9 -32.0 154.4 16.4 950.4 0.851 80.2 1.604 282.2 29.9
1000 -447.3 -42.7 198.0 18.9 882.5 0.790 69.2 1.932 340.0 32.5
14/05/15 18:48, JBM/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettyour saying that I can't tell how much pressure I have by looking at primers?

I won't put words into Greg's mouth, but I'll Guaran-[beeep]-tee that you cannot tell us that you're running exactly 65,000psi simply by looking at primers. Sure, they'll tell you if you're over their pressure threshold, but there's no gauge for exact pressure just based on a primer response.
 
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Originally Posted By: VarminterrorOriginally Posted By: steve garrettyour saying that I can't tell how much pressure I have by looking at primers?

I won't put words into Greg's mouth, but I'll Guaran-[beeep]-tee that you cannot tell us that you're running 65,000psi simply by looking at primers.

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Originally Posted By: ICU22-250I just watched a video of making the 20 practical out of 223, so you have to size the brass twice with two different bushing sizes? He also uses the 223 seater die, I'm guessing this is how your making your brass Greg..

Yep it's that easy. I do 3 steps, the first is a regular .223 die then the bushing die with 2 bushings. After the first processing you should only need to do the smallest bushing for each reloading.

And a regular .223 bullet seater.

I did mine when the weather turned bad, precious little trigger time on it. But the weather will hopefully change for the better soon. Very light recoil if memory serves
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