True AR Accuracy?

J

Jay Cummings

New member
I shot only bolt guns for years and have handloaded for all my rifles and always am able to achieve excellent accuracy, usually around .500-.750" consistently. I have been loading for my AR and I can get good groups but I do see more flyers than with my bolt guns. I know most of us with bolt guns usually aim for the .500" groups. I know there are probably ARs out there that are some real hummers but on the average do you expect the same level of accuracy from your AR as you do your bolt gun? Sure, we have all seen that "1" group from an AR that is outstanding but I'm talking the norm. I might add I have a Stag model 6 Varminter.
 
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I'd say it depends a lot on the build. I have seen 6 or 7 JP custom built AR's, and a couple of Dtech units, and they all shoot groups as tight as any bolt gun I have ever seen. All these were using Hornady Superperformance factory loads.
 
You can give me the best AR out there and I will still out shoot my self with a bolt gun.
The fit of an AR is odd to me and I am more comfortable on a bolt gun.
I also have a friend that can shoot itsy bitsy groups with said AR and will not do so great with the bolt. He grew up shooting an AR for everything.

Sometimes it takes time to adjust to an AR. It will get better with rounds fired.
 
The reciprocating mass in an AR makes it more difficult to follow-through. I feel your pain on making an AR shoot knots. I have a Bushmaster Varminter that seems to not want to shoot better than 1 MOA. It frustrates me in that I'd love to make it my go to setup for the p-dog fields. I'm hoping that trying to build one with a top shelf barrel and thick-walled upper will help me in getting to that .5 MOA.
 
I just recently picked up an AR and I am so impressed off the bench. Half inch or less repeatable again and again. I haven't spent much time shooting. Only 80 rounds so far with hand loads. It's all in the trigger. I couldn't imagine using a mil spec.
 
Well maybe I am the lucky one here, but we have 2 Rock Rivers that will group under 1/2" with my handloads. Mine is a 20" Predator Pursuit, and my son has a 20" Coyote. We both shoot 55gr. V-max loads and I have been shooting all winter at our Clubs 100 meter Underground range, and getting 1/2" groups on a Kongsberg Electronic target system. I have been shooting about the same size groups out of my Rem 700 VSSF II 22-250 bolt gun so I have nothing bad to say about the accuracy out of an AR.
 
A lot depends on the barrel and the trigger. I have 2 ar's that will shoot right along side any of my bolt guns. One is a factory RRA predator pursuit with a 20in barrel and the lower has a tuned NM2 stage trigger with a PRS stock on it. The other 2 uppers are from WOA one in 20pr and the other is a 6mmWOA with 20 and 22in barrels. The lowers are set up the same as the RRA PP with tuned NM2 stage triggers. They all feel the same when I go to the bench. It does take some time to get use to the way the gun cycles and recoils in the bags. One thing that I did notice is that if you are shooting 3 or 5 rounds groups and loading all the rounds in a magazine some of my last rounds are what opens up the group so what I do is either single load the rounds or load 1 more in the mag that way they all have the same cycle and recoil feel. If I shoot the bolt actions for a while and the get the ar's out it take me a couple shots before I get the feel of the ar.
 
My AR's are pretty dang accurate. The biggest fault in an AR is the trigger. I have never found a trigger that can have the same feel as a good bolt rifle. Close, sure, but not the same.


5 at 100



10 at 100 in rapid succesion. Aim point was the penned circle below the group.
 
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3DHUSKER, I can relate. I admit I am not as comfortable with my AR as I am my bolt guns. My Stag 6 has a RRA national match 2 stage trigger and while it is pretty good, it is nothing like my bolt action triggers and that may be alot of it.

760, Nice shooting! And that 10 shot is impressive!
 
I can assure you that AR's from JP Rifles will shoot consistently at 1/2 MOA. I have owned several of them and they all will shoot as well as any custom bolt rifle.
 
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Is your cheek weld as consistent on your AR as on your bolt rifles? If not that might contribute to your challenge. Top 3gun shooter Travis Gibson has a piece of rubber glued on his MagPul stock for just this reason. His son Wyatt does too (and generally speaking Wyatt wins A LOT).

I agree with the trigger comments. Your model Stag had an option for a Geissele Super 3 Gun trigger. Is that what's in it? There would be a G stamped on the side of the trigger that you can see. If so your trigger probably isn't your problem.

The last thing I'd say is I seem to be way more accurate with ARs I have a lot of confidence in. Not sure why that is, it just is. And yes I have some that shoot 1/2 inch groups when I do my part. That and I shoot better groups with suppressed ARs better than unsuppressed. Not sure why but I do.

Sendit
 
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Originally Posted By: Jay Cummings I know there are probably ARs out there that are some real hummers but on the average do you expect the same level of accuracy from your AR as you do your bolt gun? Sure, we have all seen that "1" group from an AR that is outstanding but I'm talking the norm.

Shot HP competition for years and never had much use for the black guns until they started holding their own, even @ 600 yds.
When no longer able to compete due to arthritis, took up predator hunting and an accurate AR was the perfect tool. Picked up a Bushy Predator from a PM member and found it to be capable of printing targets equal to my match bolt guns.

Shot this 5 shot group w/the Predator, first four shots measured .252" but fifth shot opened group up to .354" (5th shot didn't punch clean hole & is barely visible cutting the 4 shot group @ 1 o'clock)



Originally Posted By: deaddogwalkinIt does take some time to get use to the way the gun cycles and recoils in the bags. One thing that I did notice is that if you are shooting 3 or 5 rounds groups and loading all the rounds in a magazine some of my last rounds are what opens up the group so what I do is either single load the rounds or load 1 more in the mag that way they all have the same cycle and recoil feel.

Agree that the last round out of the magazine may print out of the group a bit, possibly because the rifle recoils a bit differently on last round due to less magazine spring pressure on bolt carrier causing rifle to recoil differently. I shoot better groups off the bench with AR's as I can maintain uniform cheek weld/stock position for the entire string, not having to break position to operate the bolt.

When I wanted a bit more power, Mike @ Dtech built me a 243 WSSM that is also a tack driver. Shot this target to check zero; fired the three shot group (.215"), then moved scope up 1/2" and fired the single shot. My aim point was the lower right hand corner of the 1 1/2" square.



Not every AR will shoot
 
Sendit223, the cheek weld issue might be my problem. I feel terribly inconsistent with where my cheek sits on the rifle. I may experiment with that. My trigger is not the Geiessele. It is the RRA NM 2 stage. I'm wondering if the inconsistency of my cheek to stock relationship along with a 2.5-10 scope with no paralax adjustemnt is messing with me.
 
If you have occasional flyers I would more than likely attribute them to issues such as trigger pulls, breathing control, sight picture/slight alignment, etc

Inside 200 yds I'm not sure I could tell a difference between my AR and bolt action shot groups.
 
Originally Posted By: Jay CummingsSendit223, the cheek weld issue might be my problem. I feel terribly inconsistent with where my cheek sits on the rifle. I may experiment with that. My trigger is not the Geiessele. It is the RRA NM 2 stage. I'm wondering if the inconsistency of my cheek to stock relationship along with a 2.5-10 scope with no paralax adjustemnt is messing with me.

The Rock River isn't a terrible trigger, but when compared to the Geissele, it's as bad as a mil-spec trigger. I played with the CMC trigger on Seekins new 308 AR the other day and it feels really nice. I'd like to take one to the range and compare it to my Geissele SD-3G. The Hiperfire 24C is another that some of the local 3-gunners use and all seem to be very happy with them. I'd agree that all the things you've mentioned are a part of your accuracy issue. When I went to a Vltor Emod, my cheekweld got a lot better.

And Sendit, I think Travis and Wyatt could win A LOT with stock mil-spec rifles and ball ammo. They're impressive to watch, especially when they get to the pistol stages.
 
I haven't had much problem getting my AR's to shoot sub MOA with good hand loads off the bench.

My latest build is a 20" billet with side charge upper and its is well under MOA with hand loads for the wife's AR. Heck it shot her loads so well I haven't bothered to test any further. Since this picture I swapped for a Magpul PRS stock



This is a pretty typical 10rds group for this rifle at 200yds off the bench. This was shot with a 6-9" Harris bipod and rear bag in a 10-15mph wind (standard 1" dot pictured)



Bullet was the 68gr Hornday HPBT on H335. It was the first do all load i tried when the wife wanted and AR.

Hers is the Stag 18" 3-gun model(very nice set up for a do everything AR). Only changes from stock were the a Magpul CTR stock due to the secondary lock to keep it solid and a Fortis Red FH (Rainier mini pictured here). For range play she uses a VXIII 3.5-10, for calling she runs it as shown with the 1-4:



Of course both of these guns have good triggers (hers a Geisselle S3G, all of mine have the SSA-E's) and are shot for groups off good rests.
 
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ARs have a slower lock time than many bolt guns and therefore are less forgiving of shooter technique.

After shooting the gas guns a bunch a good bolt seems to have radar.
grin.gif
 
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