223 AR 300 yard + accuracy??
- Thread starter phutch30
- Start date
deaddogwalkin
Active member
All depends on the person behind the trigger. Most Ar's should be able to hold slightly better than MOA.
Widow maker 223
Active member
A log of variables. I expect 1/2moa with good handloads.
stickyburrs
New member
i agree with deaddog it really comes down to the shooter.i think most quality rifle mfr's will give a moa garanty.im an average shooter so thats what i expect with quality factory ammo
Coyotehunter_
New member
So 1 Minute of Angle at 300 yards is approximate 3" Right? So 1/2 MOA is 1.5"? That pretty tight if you ask me.
Maybe I'm using the wrong ammo for my AR 15's barrel with a 1:7 twist. But that's better than I can shoot with a led sled at 200 yards. Are you taking the wind into effect as well?
Maybe I'm using the wrong ammo for my AR 15's barrel with a 1:7 twist. But that's better than I can shoot with a led sled at 200 yards. Are you taking the wind into effect as well?
SalemDawger
New member
On a calm day off a bench 3/4- 1 in moa, off shooting sticks at a coyote 300 yards away I almost never shoot minute of coyote groups.
Heck this year I'm missing them at 150! That's the funny thing about comparing bench rest accuracy to hunting accuracy, I shoot better I can't see a live coyote.
Heck this year I'm missing them at 150! That's the funny thing about comparing bench rest accuracy to hunting accuracy, I shoot better I can't see a live coyote.
Your optics choice may be the limiting factor. A reasonable quality, reasonable magnification variable power scope will bring out good groups, an Aimpoint or EO Tech type, even with a magnifier, can't do nearly as well, at least for me, but they are quick at close range.
To shoot the smallest possible groups takes more scope than I like to hunt with, and it takes a finer reticle than I want to hunt with too. For my AR it would take a new trigger too though the OEM trigger is fine for hunting.
FWIW, though relatively new to the 223/5.56, I find more variability in 223 factory ammo than factory ammo for any other cartridge. For example, I was shooting some Federal 55gr FMJ the other day out of two rifles and accuracy was so poor I went over each rifle looking for what was loose. Nothing was loose! Switched to some Fiocchi 50gr V-Max and groups shrunk dramatically for both rifles.
I didn't think I wanted to reload for the 223 since ammunition is plentiful now, and there is a wide selection of very reasonably priced ammo, but now I am thinking about it.
JPK
To shoot the smallest possible groups takes more scope than I like to hunt with, and it takes a finer reticle than I want to hunt with too. For my AR it would take a new trigger too though the OEM trigger is fine for hunting.
FWIW, though relatively new to the 223/5.56, I find more variability in 223 factory ammo than factory ammo for any other cartridge. For example, I was shooting some Federal 55gr FMJ the other day out of two rifles and accuracy was so poor I went over each rifle looking for what was loose. Nothing was loose! Switched to some Fiocchi 50gr V-Max and groups shrunk dramatically for both rifles.
I didn't think I wanted to reload for the 223 since ammunition is plentiful now, and there is a wide selection of very reasonably priced ammo, but now I am thinking about it.
JPK
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Widow maker 223
Active member
FMJ's arent known For accuracy.
Originally Posted By: Widow maker 223FMJ's arent known For accuracy.
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
Widow maker 223
Active member
Yes you will have a remarkable difference sometimes. I have one rifle that shoots hornady fmj's into 1-1/2" grouos at 100yds which is great for a fmj. That gun shoots a v max into 1/2".
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
For a "Quality" AR, it's going to depend on the shooter's skills and the ammo selection for longer distance (300yd +) shooting...You need to consider potential trajectory and wind resistance in your selection and wind reading ability...
Since you don't indicate whether Factory or your Reloads, matching Factory ammo to your rifle can be an expensive and time consuming chore...If you reload, you can find the more perfect ammo with less expense and time investment by doing a little research on information available from manufacturers like Sierra, Speer, Nosler, and/or Hornady..Powder companies usually have some pretty reliable test data as well for starting load development.....
While there are specific exceptions, I've seldom found factory ammo to be the most accurate since it's designed to work in the "average" rifle, for 'average' shooting. It's a little like the difference between buying a suit off the rack or having one custom tailored..One off the rack might fit pretty good, but the tailored one makes you look like a real professional...(it also hides a concealed weapon much better)...
Since you don't indicate whether Factory or your Reloads, matching Factory ammo to your rifle can be an expensive and time consuming chore...If you reload, you can find the more perfect ammo with less expense and time investment by doing a little research on information available from manufacturers like Sierra, Speer, Nosler, and/or Hornady..Powder companies usually have some pretty reliable test data as well for starting load development.....
While there are specific exceptions, I've seldom found factory ammo to be the most accurate since it's designed to work in the "average" rifle, for 'average' shooting. It's a little like the difference between buying a suit off the rack or having one custom tailored..One off the rack might fit pretty good, but the tailored one makes you look like a real professional...(it also hides a concealed weapon much better)...
Widow maker 223
Active member
Originally Posted By: JPKOriginally Posted By: Widow maker 223FMJ's arent known For accuracy.
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
I did some shooting at 100yds tonite. Top groups aiming at the black dots. Prone off a bi pod with a rear bag. Second group from left was developed for a dmps of mine is 1-1/8" 5shot for the fmj's group on far left was from another gun you can see it opens way up!! Group on far right was from the dpms 1/2" 5 shot 40gr v max. That load shoots 1-1/2ish at 300yds and 2-1/2 to 3" at 400yds. Every gun is different. No two loads are the same. A load developed for a particular gun has a lot to do with it. Forgot to add the dmps has 12$ rings 30$ tacso and had a XLR250 kill light hanging off the barrel when i shot those groups.
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
I did some shooting at 100yds tonite. Top groups aiming at the black dots. Prone off a bi pod with a rear bag. Second group from left was developed for a dmps of mine is 1-1/8" 5shot for the fmj's group on far left was from another gun you can see it opens way up!! Group on far right was from the dpms 1/2" 5 shot 40gr v max. That load shoots 1-1/2ish at 300yds and 2-1/2 to 3" at 400yds. Every gun is different. No two loads are the same. A load developed for a particular gun has a lot to do with it. Forgot to add the dmps has 12$ rings 30$ tacso and had a XLR250 kill light hanging off the barrel when i shot those groups.
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As mentioned earlier, a good scope (with LOTS of power) is a must to determine the best from your gun and loads, especially at 300 yards. Not an AR, but I just checked accuracy with some factory loads, and my reloads in a Tikka T3 lite in .223. Using a 21X scope, with a small dot, I got very good results at 100/200 yards. Even had a group or two less than 1/2" at 200 yds. After testing the loads, I put a 4-12x scope on it for coyote hunting. Looking thru a scope at 200 yds on 21x is a drastic difference than using 12x (with standard reticle). I wouldn't be nearly excited about the accuracy of my Tikka if I had only used the 4-12x. I have to admit, I did shoot some good groups (for me) at 100 with my scope at 12x. Here's one at 100 yards.
In addition, a good trigger is also a must! Shooter needs to be doing their part too, or as in my case, had a lucky day at the range.
In addition, a good trigger is also a must! Shooter needs to be doing their part too, or as in my case, had a lucky day at the range.
I understand that each rifle is a law unto itself and that two different rifles will shoot the same load differently, most of the time. And I do reload for a couple of my rifles.
However, I have found that while groups shot with different factory ammo or different handloads with one rifle will vary some, I have only one rifle which shoots some loads very well and some very poorly. Usually if a rifle can shoot well it will shoot even loads it doesn't prefer decently.
That wasn't the case with either rifle with the Federal FMJ ammo, neither rifle would shoot it even passably, though they both shot the Fiocchi A-Max ammo well.
I have been thinking that with the Fiocchi 50gr A-Max load that I might be able to manage some one hole five shot 100yd groups with the CZ 527 on a calmer, warmer day. If so I won't reload for it. I managed about a .66" or so for the final confirmation of zero group in the wind. My AR is set up with an EO Tech and can't match the CZ but doesn't need to. The sight picture just doesn't cut it for precision shooting, but it is quick and intended for closer range night shooting.
A Q: do you find it beneficial to seat the FMJ's out beyond 223 OAL when loading for a 5.56 chamber? And how far off the lands have you found to generally be where your 5.56 rifles like?
JPK
However, I have found that while groups shot with different factory ammo or different handloads with one rifle will vary some, I have only one rifle which shoots some loads very well and some very poorly. Usually if a rifle can shoot well it will shoot even loads it doesn't prefer decently.
That wasn't the case with either rifle with the Federal FMJ ammo, neither rifle would shoot it even passably, though they both shot the Fiocchi A-Max ammo well.
I have been thinking that with the Fiocchi 50gr A-Max load that I might be able to manage some one hole five shot 100yd groups with the CZ 527 on a calmer, warmer day. If so I won't reload for it. I managed about a .66" or so for the final confirmation of zero group in the wind. My AR is set up with an EO Tech and can't match the CZ but doesn't need to. The sight picture just doesn't cut it for precision shooting, but it is quick and intended for closer range night shooting.
A Q: do you find it beneficial to seat the FMJ's out beyond 223 OAL when loading for a 5.56 chamber? And how far off the lands have you found to generally be where your 5.56 rifles like?
JPK
bushy
New member
JPK, you reload but are concerned about federal factory fmj accuracy. If the factory fiocchi loads are shooting .7 MOA then that is good enough for hunting, but then you ask about seating fmj's...are you reloading fmj's or shooting factory. I am just trying to figure out the info that you are actuallu after. In an AR you are resticted to mag length for seating unless you plan on single loading, in a 527 you have the same issue.
Widow maker 223
Active member
I never play with seating depth in AR's. I load everything to 2.26". Always had good luck with it.
AzDiamondHeat
New member
Originally Posted By: Widow maker 223Originally Posted By: JPKOriginally Posted By: Widow maker 223FMJ's arent known For accuracy.
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
I did some shooting at 100yds tonite. Top groups aiming at the black dots. Prone off a bi pod with a rear bag. Second group from left was developed for a dmps of mine is 1-1/8" 5shot for the fmj's group on far left was from another gun you can see it opens way up!! Group on far right was from the dpms 1/2" 5 shot 40gr v max. That load shoots 1-1/2ish at 300yds and 2-1/2 to 3" at 400yds. Every gun is different. No two loads are the same. A load developed for a particular gun has a lot to do with it. Forgot to add the dmps has 12$ rings 30$ tacso and had a XLR250 kill light hanging off the barrel when i shot those groups.
Did you recover the Pizza? Looks like it may have been a runner....
I have read that. But the difference was remarkable. In the rifle with the better scope for target shooting, the difference was 3-4" vs. less than 1" at 100. On the other hand, I read the specs for military ammo, and it is about 3 MOA as I recall.
Also, some of the most accurate bullets in big bores are steel jacketed solids or flat nose mono metal solids. Almost the opposite of what you might expect.
JPK
I did some shooting at 100yds tonite. Top groups aiming at the black dots. Prone off a bi pod with a rear bag. Second group from left was developed for a dmps of mine is 1-1/8" 5shot for the fmj's group on far left was from another gun you can see it opens way up!! Group on far right was from the dpms 1/2" 5 shot 40gr v max. That load shoots 1-1/2ish at 300yds and 2-1/2 to 3" at 400yds. Every gun is different. No two loads are the same. A load developed for a particular gun has a lot to do with it. Forgot to add the dmps has 12$ rings 30$ tacso and had a XLR250 kill light hanging off the barrel when i shot those groups.
Did you recover the Pizza? Looks like it may have been a runner....