Brass Annealing Guide
- Thread starter orkan
- Start date
Theshedhunter
Active member
Good to know thanks for posting this
orkan
Active member
It's not desirable immediately after annealing. That pretty marking will show up over time, as the surface oxidizes. There will always be a slight ring at the transition point between the annealed brass and the rest of the case. Lapua brass looks like it does because it has sat around for months after being annealed. Most manufacturers tumble their annealing oxidization marks off, so you never notice.
Dirty Hippie
New member
That's a groovy video, thanks for sharing! Now to get one of those little machines
http://www.stevespanglerscience.com/lab/experiments/flame-test
pretty sure that what is burning off the brass is NOT part of the brass. more like powder residue or oils from the gun. it is not so easy to separate the metals of an alloy.
pretty sure that what is burning off the brass is NOT part of the brass. more like powder residue or oils from the gun. it is not so easy to separate the metals of an alloy.
orkan
Active member
Originally Posted By: 6724http://www.stevespanglerscience.com/lab/experiments/flame-test
pretty sure that what is burning off the brass is NOT part of the brass. more like powder residue or oils from the gun. it is not so easy to separate the metals of an alloy. I stainless tumble. You could eat off my brass. No sir, it's not "residue."
pretty sure that what is burning off the brass is NOT part of the brass. more like powder residue or oils from the gun. it is not so easy to separate the metals of an alloy. I stainless tumble. You could eat off my brass. No sir, it's not "residue."
well, you cannot separate the tin from the copper by exposing it to flame. if that were true, you could put a flame to your brass and end up with a pile of pure copper!
every element burns with a certain color, copper and tin from iirc, do not produce a yellow flame.
i was turned away from annealing many years ago because of some people proclaiming that it has to be just JUST RIGHT or you will ruin your brass. and making it out to be some voodoo process that requires high dollar equipment and a graduate degree in physics.
the fact is, annealing is easy to do with simple tools. you do NOT need some special machine with timers and automated indexing. a simple propane torch, a deep well socket on a cordless drill will do it.
i have now annealed thousands of brass with cheap simple tools. i have never ruined a case yet!
in a dim room, heat until red, remove from heat and let cool. done!
every element burns with a certain color, copper and tin from iirc, do not produce a yellow flame.
i was turned away from annealing many years ago because of some people proclaiming that it has to be just JUST RIGHT or you will ruin your brass. and making it out to be some voodoo process that requires high dollar equipment and a graduate degree in physics.
the fact is, annealing is easy to do with simple tools. you do NOT need some special machine with timers and automated indexing. a simple propane torch, a deep well socket on a cordless drill will do it.
i have now annealed thousands of brass with cheap simple tools. i have never ruined a case yet!
in a dim room, heat until red, remove from heat and let cool. done!
midwestpredator
Active member
Originally Posted By: 6724well, you cannot separate the tin from the copper by exposing it to flame. if that were true, you could put a flame to your brass and end up with a pile of pure copper!
every element burns with a certain color, copper and tin from iirc, do not produce a yellow flame.
i was turned away from annealing many years ago because of some people proclaiming that it has to be just JUST RIGHT or you will ruin your brass. and making it out to be some voodoo process that requires high dollar equipment and a graduate degree in physics.
the fact is, annealing is easy to do with simple tools. you do NOT need some special machine with timers and automated indexing. a simple propane torch, a deep well socket on a cordless drill will do it.
i have now annealed thousands of brass with cheap simple tools. i have never ruined a case yet!
in a dim room, heat until red, remove from heat and let cool. done!
Yuuuuppppp!
To each there own and I guess if you have enough money then by all means spend it but I took notes from catshooter and the drill/socket and bernzomatic work just fine. Different brass will yield different coloration as does different torch heads.
every element burns with a certain color, copper and tin from iirc, do not produce a yellow flame.
i was turned away from annealing many years ago because of some people proclaiming that it has to be just JUST RIGHT or you will ruin your brass. and making it out to be some voodoo process that requires high dollar equipment and a graduate degree in physics.
the fact is, annealing is easy to do with simple tools. you do NOT need some special machine with timers and automated indexing. a simple propane torch, a deep well socket on a cordless drill will do it.
i have now annealed thousands of brass with cheap simple tools. i have never ruined a case yet!
in a dim room, heat until red, remove from heat and let cool. done!
Yuuuuppppp!
To each there own and I guess if you have enough money then by all means spend it but I took notes from catshooter and the drill/socket and bernzomatic work just fine. Different brass will yield different coloration as does different torch heads.
orkan
Active member
I saw catshooter post over on my forum, disagreeing with me, and I knew it was only a matter of time before the hit squad showed up to "set me straight" over here. I made no mention of needing an expensive automated machine ANYWHERE in this thread or in that video... yet it doesn't stop the detractors from showing up to crap all over the place. So very disappointing.
I had the backing of a very talented metallurgist, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in lab equipment when developing this method. He and I are absolutely certain that we have discovered the best way to determine where each different brands brass alloy was properly annealed and where it started to get over-annealed. If you don't like that, and want to do it your way, please don't let me stop you.
I had the backing of a very talented metallurgist, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in lab equipment when developing this method. He and I are absolutely certain that we have discovered the best way to determine where each different brands brass alloy was properly annealed and where it started to get over-annealed. If you don't like that, and want to do it your way, please don't let me stop you.
"hit squad"?
i was scared away from annealing by stuff like this video. then i found out that it was not the voodoo that it was made out to be. it is really not that hard to do.
with hundreds of thousands of dollars of lab equipment, can you quantify exactly what has been "burned" out of the brass? can you quantify what is properly annealed vs over annealed?
we see threads about how to ruin brass all the time, and some threads on how to do it right. maybe i have been doing it all wrong. there has got to be some kind of data to show what happens with under annealed, properly annealed, and over annealed brass.
i was scared away from annealing by stuff like this video. then i found out that it was not the voodoo that it was made out to be. it is really not that hard to do.
with hundreds of thousands of dollars of lab equipment, can you quantify exactly what has been "burned" out of the brass? can you quantify what is properly annealed vs over annealed?
we see threads about how to ruin brass all the time, and some threads on how to do it right. maybe i have been doing it all wrong. there has got to be some kind of data to show what happens with under annealed, properly annealed, and over annealed brass.
orkan
Active member
Originally Posted By: fw707Looks good to me.
So, is the Tempilaq method totally wrong? I won't say that it is totally wrong. It is very difficult to get repeatable and consistent results. This makes it time consuming and not easily done. It also doesn't take into account the different metals present in the different brands alloys. If all the brands of brass are different in composition, thickness, ductility, etc... then how can there be "one" set temperature that defines when they are all annealed? That question is what led me to find a better method years ago. When searching for answers to quantify that question and all its parts, I went on a years long journey trying to learn about brass to discover what mattered and what didn't. Along the way I met some very smart people, spent a lot of money, and learned a great deal. It was from those experiences and relationships that my method was born. If someone happened upon it before me, they certainly weren't sharing. When the subject has come up in the past, I've shared the method in individual posts... but recently I was prompted by some individuals taking my work as their own to finally complete a short video describing the process.
Originally Posted By: 6724i was scared away from annealing by stuff like this video. then i found out that it was not the voodoo that it was made out to be. it is really not that hard to do. If that is your viewpoint, I see no point in continuing to "discuss" this with you. What is "voodoo?" I say, find where the flame changes orange, back off a few tenths of a second, and go. Yeah, boy that is some vicious witchcraft there. I have received over a dozen emails, and about twice as many PM's since posting that video, thanking me for making it so SIMPLE and EASY it is to achieve proper annealing. So if you are saying I'm making it difficult and "voodoo" then clearly we are too far apart in our thinking to find common ground. Carry on with whatever method you prefer.
So, is the Tempilaq method totally wrong? I won't say that it is totally wrong. It is very difficult to get repeatable and consistent results. This makes it time consuming and not easily done. It also doesn't take into account the different metals present in the different brands alloys. If all the brands of brass are different in composition, thickness, ductility, etc... then how can there be "one" set temperature that defines when they are all annealed? That question is what led me to find a better method years ago. When searching for answers to quantify that question and all its parts, I went on a years long journey trying to learn about brass to discover what mattered and what didn't. Along the way I met some very smart people, spent a lot of money, and learned a great deal. It was from those experiences and relationships that my method was born. If someone happened upon it before me, they certainly weren't sharing. When the subject has come up in the past, I've shared the method in individual posts... but recently I was prompted by some individuals taking my work as their own to finally complete a short video describing the process.
Originally Posted By: 6724i was scared away from annealing by stuff like this video. then i found out that it was not the voodoo that it was made out to be. it is really not that hard to do. If that is your viewpoint, I see no point in continuing to "discuss" this with you. What is "voodoo?" I say, find where the flame changes orange, back off a few tenths of a second, and go. Yeah, boy that is some vicious witchcraft there. I have received over a dozen emails, and about twice as many PM's since posting that video, thanking me for making it so SIMPLE and EASY it is to achieve proper annealing. So if you are saying I'm making it difficult and "voodoo" then clearly we are too far apart in our thinking to find common ground. Carry on with whatever method you prefer.
Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: orkanI saw catshooter post over on my forum, disagreeing with me, and I knew it was only a matter of time before the hit squad showed up to "set me straight" over here. I made no mention of needing an expensive automated machine ANYWHERE in this thread or in that video... yet it doesn't stop the detractors from showing up to crap all over the place. So very disappointing.
I had the backing of a very talented metallurgist, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in lab equipment when developing this method. He and I are absolutely certain that we have discovered the best way to determine where each different brands brass alloy was properly annealed and where it started to get over-annealed. If you don't like that, and want to do it your way, please don't let me stop you.
The problem with most of your opinion based posts is that, YOUR way, or YOUR product is THE ONLY way to do it right. That is foolish on your part.
Lots of ways to skin a cat [no pun]. We are all trying to get from point A to point B. YOU do what works for YOU. Pass that along for other folks to know. That is a fine thing to do. Just remember that your way is not the only, absolute, correct way to do things. The rest of us are getting along just fine out here, with what works for US.
Example
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
At the bottom of this write up you have Rich DeSimone explain Charles Bailey's method for brass annealing.
Charles Bailey is the 2001 IBS 1,000-yard benchrest shooter of the year.
While Rich DeSimone holds the 5 shot IBS 1K world record, as of the writing.
Their method is far from scientific, but produces world class results. NOT OPINION, but real results in the real world. This is helpful.
I use this same, un-scientific process, and am very happy. According to your write up I have, as well as Rich and Charles, probably "ruined" many cases with this process. However the results just don't bear that fact out.
Exactly what happens to "over annealed" cases in the neck and shoulder area? What are the signs of failure? World class 1K groups?
I had the backing of a very talented metallurgist, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in lab equipment when developing this method. He and I are absolutely certain that we have discovered the best way to determine where each different brands brass alloy was properly annealed and where it started to get over-annealed. If you don't like that, and want to do it your way, please don't let me stop you.
The problem with most of your opinion based posts is that, YOUR way, or YOUR product is THE ONLY way to do it right. That is foolish on your part.
Lots of ways to skin a cat [no pun]. We are all trying to get from point A to point B. YOU do what works for YOU. Pass that along for other folks to know. That is a fine thing to do. Just remember that your way is not the only, absolute, correct way to do things. The rest of us are getting along just fine out here, with what works for US.
Example
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
At the bottom of this write up you have Rich DeSimone explain Charles Bailey's method for brass annealing.
Charles Bailey is the 2001 IBS 1,000-yard benchrest shooter of the year.
While Rich DeSimone holds the 5 shot IBS 1K world record, as of the writing.
Their method is far from scientific, but produces world class results. NOT OPINION, but real results in the real world. This is helpful.
I use this same, un-scientific process, and am very happy. According to your write up I have, as well as Rich and Charles, probably "ruined" many cases with this process. However the results just don't bear that fact out.
Exactly what happens to "over annealed" cases in the neck and shoulder area? What are the signs of failure? World class 1K groups?
orkan
Active member
Oh boy. So (insert big name here) is a champion of the universe and he does "X" so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. I better get an equipment and technique list from champion of the universe so I can be champion of the universe next year. What a joke.
Do you honestly think everyone would be using a drill and socket if money was no object? No, they'd be using a machine, because that is what will produce the most consistent results. ... but don't let the fact that I NEVER MENTIONED anything about a machine being best, stop you from bashing me over it.
Originally Posted By: SmokelessThe problem with most of your opinion based posts is that, YOUR way, or YOUR product is THE ONLY way to do it right. That is foolish on your part. There's your version... then there's what actually happens.
I share my opinion. Then others come along and say how wrong and stupid it is. I defend my position with proof and facts of personal experiences, then those same people continue saying "nope thats wrong!" ... regardless of proof or facts offered. That is pretty much the same thing that happens to anyone that shares anything on every forum these days which is any more advanced than "which nikon scope should I buy?" Thankfully most of those people have been banned recently... but I see there is still no shortage.
I stand accused of saying my way is the only way, and my product (which I don't sell any [beeep] annealing products) is the only one, and that everyone needs an annealing machine, regardless of NOTHING of the sort being said. Sound about right? You people are unbelievable. No one can just take information given, decide on their own if they like it, and move on. You MUST find something negative to say, even if the negative thing you are complaining about NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You do understand that NOTHING I've been accused of in this thread thus far, ACTUALLY happened in this thread or in that video right? If not, you might want to see a mental health professional. But by all means, don't let that stop you from accusing me of it!!! That would be uncharacteristic.
I know so very many extremely talented people that have told me for years that they absolutely refuse to participate in forums. I can see why. It doesn't matter how the information is presented, someone will ALWAYS be standing there to complain. Did I charge you for the video? Did I try to sell anything in it? Strange... Here I thought I was compiling thousands of dollars and a solid year of effort into 10 minutes and giving it away for free. ... but again, by all means, please PLEASE don't let that stop you from throwing ridiculous accusations and insinuations my direction.
Do you honestly think everyone would be using a drill and socket if money was no object? No, they'd be using a machine, because that is what will produce the most consistent results. ... but don't let the fact that I NEVER MENTIONED anything about a machine being best, stop you from bashing me over it.
Originally Posted By: SmokelessThe problem with most of your opinion based posts is that, YOUR way, or YOUR product is THE ONLY way to do it right. That is foolish on your part. There's your version... then there's what actually happens.
I share my opinion. Then others come along and say how wrong and stupid it is. I defend my position with proof and facts of personal experiences, then those same people continue saying "nope thats wrong!" ... regardless of proof or facts offered. That is pretty much the same thing that happens to anyone that shares anything on every forum these days which is any more advanced than "which nikon scope should I buy?" Thankfully most of those people have been banned recently... but I see there is still no shortage.
I stand accused of saying my way is the only way, and my product (which I don't sell any [beeep] annealing products) is the only one, and that everyone needs an annealing machine, regardless of NOTHING of the sort being said. Sound about right? You people are unbelievable. No one can just take information given, decide on their own if they like it, and move on. You MUST find something negative to say, even if the negative thing you are complaining about NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You do understand that NOTHING I've been accused of in this thread thus far, ACTUALLY happened in this thread or in that video right? If not, you might want to see a mental health professional. But by all means, don't let that stop you from accusing me of it!!! That would be uncharacteristic.
I know so very many extremely talented people that have told me for years that they absolutely refuse to participate in forums. I can see why. It doesn't matter how the information is presented, someone will ALWAYS be standing there to complain. Did I charge you for the video? Did I try to sell anything in it? Strange... Here I thought I was compiling thousands of dollars and a solid year of effort into 10 minutes and giving it away for free. ... but again, by all means, please PLEASE don't let that stop you from throwing ridiculous accusations and insinuations my direction.
so, please tell me. what scientific data have you acquired with your hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment? can you tell us in quantified terms how the brass is different when it is "over annealed"?
please share with us how a "few tenths of a second" less heat saves brass.
for all the proclamation of the perfect process, compensating for different alloys, i have seen absolutely no facts.
please share with us how a "few tenths of a second" less heat saves brass.
for all the proclamation of the perfect process, compensating for different alloys, i have seen absolutely no facts.
Roadrunner
New member
I tumble all my brass to shiny new before annealing with the same fancy machine. I'm not taking sides to the pissin match as I really don't care what anyone else is doing to their brass, but remember if you keep arguing no one will be able to tell you apart
Have a good un! RR
orkan
Active member
Originally Posted By: RoadrunnerI tumble all my brass to shiny new before annealing with the same fancy machine. I think that's the best way to go about it. I've got to believe that once you get the timing down, a guy could run non-tumbled brass through without issue if they wanted to though. Maybe shine a couple up with some elbow grease to get the timing set right first. I wouldn't think that the little bit of carbon would really insulate the cases that much... but I never have spent a lot of time finding out since I always have sparkly clean brass going through the annealer.