ok 17, or 22 hornet or 223

S

scoremaster

New member
kinda like a dilemma I own a 223 in a savage model 12 but god I hate to pack the thing around I used it for benchrest matches and it's a hefty 13 lbs so not wanting to lug that thing around all night long . my question is .

should I opt out for the hornet and which caliber would be the best for fox and coyote it seems from what I have been reading that the 17 is the cats meow for fox but kinda iffy on coyotes and with the 22 hornet seems to be good on both ends with little pelt damage but not wanting to spend 600 dollors for a new rifle and all the reloading items .
since I have the 223 items but bullets seems to be the best guess but it seems what works good for one might not for the other as far as damage to the fur with the 223.
I guess each have their pros and cons but I can get a single shot 22 hornet or 223 for as little as 300 dollors. how many guys are using single shot rifles or is repeater the norm I will mostly be shooting under 150 yards at night and I would take my savage for the daylight hunts with the ability to go 2 to 3 hundred on a few spots .

I know these questions have been asked before and sorry for the repeat but the hornet question is one I am interested in .

thanks,
Scott
 
I would save your money and pack around that savage model 12 . Use the money you saved on bullet development for a fur friendly load. I have a model 12 223 as well and love that rifle no matter how heavy it is to pack around
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bemart I love my savage but like I said that thing . Is heavy as heck it's the single shot model and it's been bedded and I actually hollowed the stock a tad lol and added some lead shot in the forearm area for smooth shooting it all worked well for on the bench but not for the feild
 
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I'll throw in my two cents, which is probably what it's worth.

I can't say much about the 17 hornet since I don't own one, but I suspect it may be a bit light on coyotes. I do run a 22 hornet, 222, and 223. I also shoot two single shots. Realistically one shot at night is all one is apt to get. (I don't know that it's that much better during the day, however.) At short ranges the hornet will be effective and more fur friendly than the 223. As noted above you could load down your 223. You still have to lug that heavy gun, but it may be worth trying.
 
I would try to find a used or new .17 Remington. Remington bdl, or a CZ. Heck find a used Stevens 200 or a old savage .223 and order a barrel already chambered by shilen.
 
The 17 is very fur friendly. It can put a coyote down, but like all calibers shot placement is critical. Too many times people seem to try to use caliber to make up for poor rifle skills.

I have dropped coyotes at about 100 yards with the 17remington and ballistically the 17 hornet matches it's performance envelope.

I have used it with great success on foxes and bobcats.
 
Since your reload, a small charge of Alliant 2400 will give 2600 fps with a 40 grain bullet out of a 223, that's a 'Hornet load'.

Yes, I would get a lighter gun.
 
ok I can live with those answers and I suppose it would be smart to stick with something I already have as the 223
so there rises the question of I understand the load down for pelt damage but what works well for the coyote also work for a fox being that they are lighter skinned or am I trying to compare apples to oranges
and being a low vel. round would it be better to have a high vel. round with an explosive bullet that would not exit .
maybe I'm over thinking it all and tring to get to technical but if ya don't ask you may never know .

thanks,
Scott
 
Depending on the exact location and cover, coyotes are more likely than fox. It's more important to anchor the critter than worry excessively about pelt damage. As we know, trapping is a more effective way to collect fur.
 
Scott I use a CZ 17 Hornet, a Browning Low Wall in 22 Hornet and a 17 Remington Classic as well as a Model 7 in 223 Rem. Unless I'm working on depredation issues with crawfish farmers where multiple shots are the norm, I don't think a single shot poses any disadvantage in your case. The 22 Hornet will work great on Fox and called in Coyote, the 17 Hornet can splash on coyote. A full load out a 17 Remington will put any of them down. Muskrat30 hit the nail on the head make sure you kill the critter and if you want fur trapping is a much better option. The loaded down 223 is also a good option.
Can you put a lighter stock on your 223 and reduce weight?
 
a 17rem. will do the job use 25gr.bergers,i have shot around 800 coyotes with this caliber alone and it kills them dead. you can't believe the damage they do inside.i cut alot of them open to compare with the 52gr HPBT that we use in our 22-250's.they are devastating
 
17Rem,,, hands down.
Since you don't want to spend allot of money right now you might consider picking up one of the 700's that are on sale everywhere. Get a 223 and try some reduced loads/light bullets while you save up enough to have a 17cal barrel screwed on it.
 
Originally Posted By: scoremasterok I can live with those answers and I suppose it would be smart to stick with something I already have as the 223
so there rises the question of I understand the load down for pelt damage but what works well for the coyote also work for a fox being that they are lighter skinned or am I trying to compare apples to oranges
and being a low vel. round would it be better to have a high vel. round with an explosive bullet that would not exit .
maybe I'm over thinking it all and tring to get to technical but if ya don't ask you may never know .

thanks,
Scott

Foxes do have thinner hides than coyotes. The trick that we found in our testing was to get your bullet through the hide and into the muscle BEFORE expansion to avoid "splashes." The 17remington worked best on foxes with a Hornady 25gr HP. Poly tipped bullets seemed to expand too quickly and erupted on the surface. Yes, it dropped the fox, but it also tore a massive hole in the hide. AzBushman and I tried with limited success to build up a load with the 223 that was effective without too much damage to the hide. We loaded light bullets and those seemed to fail to expand as we got a number of runners. When we tried to push the velocity up we got fur damage. It is a tricky proposition and one that takes a lot of experimentation.

Here is a bobcat I shot at 87 yards with my 17remington AR:


Here is the hole in the chest:


Here is a fox that I shot with the 17rem:


That is the entry hole on the fox.

I have had a few hides damaged by the 17, but that was because of the angle of the shot. Not the bullet.

This fox was taken with the .223rem and as you can see the hole is pretty big. If you were selling hides, this one would probably get downgraded.



This one had it's whole chest opened by the 223


I think that the trick is to find a combination of bullet and powder that is going to give you enough velocity for expansion but not so fast that it erupts on the surface so that the bullet can get it's energy where it is needed the most. Too slow and you may fail to get expansion, too fast and you get surface splashes.

But the experimentation is part of the allure for hand loaders.
 
As mentioned above, I'd look into a lighter stock and barrel for that Savage in the caliber you would want. Most will tell you a 17 cal with an appropriate bullet - the 25 Horandy H P seems to be a reliable favorite without the poly tip that makes too fragile on entry on bone sometimes. 17 rem, 17 Fireball or a 17/223 wildcat (may need more expensive dies depending on what you have - a 223 bushing die should work here also) should do the deed nicely with less expense than a whole new gun. Used barrels and stocks are out there to lighten the load and the costs.
 
Well just thought I would let everyone know I settled on a 17 hornet sweet shooting little gun with huge potential so for right now I'm daring or hoping something is willing to let me take a shot and try my skills as a marksman out.
Thanks for all the advise and help and may the force be with me lol,

Scott
 
Originally Posted By: scoremasterWell just thought I would let everyone know I settled on a 17 hornet

Perfect for Fox but it wouldn't be my first choice for Coyotes.

Pick your shots carefully and good luck.
 
Us too have found that getting the right bullet to penetrate deep enough is key. I've had splashes with the 17 and my partner has had them with his AR shooting nearly any bullet he has tried..he uses a 1-7 twist. On a hunch I had my 'smith install a 1-14 twist Shilen on my AR in 223 and am running 40 grn vmaxes and have had stellar performance all last year. We speculate he over torques the jackets on the bullets he shoots in turn becoming highly frangible. This is just what we have determined between our rifles [beeep].
 
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