3 shot groups, barrel heat, yada yada yada

pyscodog

Active member
I know three shot groups don't count for much but I been testing loads in my 788 carbine, 243win. I worked up a load using H4895 with 87 grain V-Max. 3 with 33gr.,3 with 34, and 3 with 35. In all three powder charges, two were touching or really close but always the third shot was a flyer. Not a bad flyer, but a flyer. Smallest group was about 5/8and the largest a bit over 3/4. All would have been 1/2 inch groups if not for the flyer. The barrel is floated and its got a sweet trigger. Any suggestions? I'm thinking barrel heat. Its a really short barrel and thin. All factory gun.
 
I wait 2 or three minutes between shots. I did a ladder test and waited 3 to 5 between shots and at 300 yards I had 3 shots in 1.5" group. The vertical was only half inch different the horizontal was 1.5" which isn't bad considering I was using a 3x9 scope. I've also shot 3 and 5 shot groups without waiting and unless I pull the shot I get pretty consistent groups. I have also noticed when I try to place my shot with the touching groups I always fudge it up so I'll dial my scope an inch to an inch and a half up so I'm concentrating on my point of aim and not the group itself. That has helped me also
 
Looks to me like you are going up a grain at a time. You may have missed the sweet spot. With my 243 I was told to go up in half grain Increments, and has worked very well for me. Those are also the low end of the powder charge for that bullet, it goes up to 37.8gr's of IMR 4895 in the 3100fps range. I know with mine if I start running it to hard my groups start to open up, but I wouldnt think thats the case for you at only 35grs.
 
I'm using H-4895. 35.3 grains is max load in my Hornady book. I usually start low and work up a grain at a time till I get to max. If a load shows promise, I start to fine tune. Smaller calibers, I usually go half grains.
 
I spent quite awhile doing load development for my friends Browning Sako Safari in 243 with the 87 gr Vmax, I was having a similar experience to yours and I switched to of all things H4831sc and my groups settled down nicely and it really started to shine.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodog two were touching or really close but always the third shot was a flyer. Not a bad flyer, but a flyer. Smallest group was about 5/8and the largest a bit over 3/4. All would have been 1/2 inch groups if not for the flyer.

A round 1/8" out a flyer? For a Remington 788 in factory condition I wouldnt be complaining. Also one 3 shot group does not tell you anything.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogI know three shot groups don't count for much but I been testing loads in my 788 carbine, 243win. I worked up a load using H4895 with 87 grain V-Max. 3 with 33gr.,3 with 34, and 3 with 35. In all three powder charges, two were touching or really close but always the third shot was a flyer. Not a bad flyer, but a flyer. Smallest group was about 5/8and the largest a bit over 3/4. All would have been 1/2 inch groups if not for the flyer. The barrel is floated and its got a sweet trigger. Any suggestions? I'm thinking barrel heat. Its a really short barrel and thin. All factory gun.

Honestly, here is my suggestion...
YES, 3 shot groups do count for something, they tell you how well your rifle shoots, a 5 or 10 shot group will tell you how well you shoot your rifle, just my opinion... In most instances all I fire is 3 rounds on paper usually a couple times a week to verify zero before I hit the field, and for fun trying to print a one hole group! (Load development is a different story)

Is your "flyer" in the same location and does it take place during each firing sequence? I'm assuming if your thinking it's barrel heat, then it's your final shot of the string, but is it always high right, high left, etc. etc.

I would rebarrel that bit** to a heavy contour and flute her up, the rigidity, and extra diameter will disperse the heat and straighten you out... unless you have something loose.

But I'm willing to bet you'll settle for your sub MOA groups before you even consider retrofitting her!
 
Allow 2-3 minutes between shots and see where that leaves you. Been there ... done that. It definitely makes a difference.
 
Doesn't sound like fliers to me.

And to each his own but I machine gun my groups, get 'em all on paper before the wind can twitch (hopefully...). Three shots, five, ten, whatever, I get them all down range just as fast as I can. Skinny barrels with big cases are obviously going to heat up much faster than heavy barrels and small cases. Each situation calls for it's own evaluation. But... Any barrel that can't take the heat from a rapid three shot group without going to crap is what we call a tomato stake at my house. Got no use for a barrel like that on any of my rifles.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: DAADoesn't sound like fliers to me.

But... Any barrel that can't take the heat from a rapid three shot group without going to crap is what we call a tomato stake at my house. Got no use for a barrel like that on any of my rifles.

- DAA

And there we have it!
 
Originally Posted By: DAA But... Any barrel that can't take the heat from a rapid three shot group without going to crap is what we call a tomato stake at my house. Got no use for a barrel like that on any of my rifles.

- DAA

But aren't we dealing mainly with hunting rifles? And isn't the first shot out of a cold barrel the most important? I'm not concerned about shooting "groups" and having benchrest consistency over a designated number of rounds, but I would like to know that my loads are going to be as consistent as possible on the first shot. And that requires a stone-cold barrel ... or 2-3 minutes between rounds.
 
Originally Posted By: tugboaterThe Hornady 8th edition says 37.8gr's. I personaly use IMR 4064.

Not to argue but on page 251, 8th edition Hornady, for 85-87 grain bullets, max load of H-4895 is 35.3 grains. page 249 of the same book, max load for a 70 grain bullet using H-4895 is 37.8 grains. Either my book is wrong or your on the wrong page???
 
Hey, whatever works for you, is fine by me. What you describe isn't even shooting groups though. Is it? Practicing first shot from cold/clean is great.

For me though, no, what you describe doesn't serve "my" purpose. "If" I'm going to take a second and even a third shot with my hunting rifle, chances are, the critter isn't sitting around while I let my barrel get cold between shots.

I shoot groups to see what kind of groups the rifle is capable of though. Not to practice first/cold/clean. Second, third shots, with a hunting rifle, in my world are likely quick follow ups that are going to be fired in rapid succession. Think three coyotes in six seconds. Eighth, ninth, tenth shots, we'll now we're obviously shooting colony varmints and again, I want to know what my barrel is going to do on a long string, hot and dirty, no rest.

I guess my real point, is that it shouldn't matter. A good barrel is going to stack three put downrange just as fast as you can get off good shots just as tightly as it will letting the barrel get cold. And, actually, for most of us mere mortals who don't read conditions particularly well, usually the machine gun group will be better.

Just me... But like I said, for me, a barrel that needs to be cooled down between shots to even make a decent three shot group is headed straight for the chit pile. It's a piece of crap barrel and I won't keep it. Life's too short and there are lots of good barrels out there just waiting to be born.

- DAA
 
3 round groups are enough to tell me if a load is worth working with. If I can't get a decent group from 3 it isn't going to be great with 5 LOL

As for heat, I think any barrel should be able to handle 3 rounds. Now if the barrel is already hot, 3 more could make it too hot, but assuming it's somewhere from cold to warm at the start, 3 rounds shouldn't be too much to handle.

And as Reb pointed out, sub-MOA from a stock factory rifle isn't anything to complain about.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogOriginally Posted By: tugboaterThe Hornady 8th edition says 37.8gr's. I personaly use IMR 4064.

Not to argue but on page 251, 8th edition Hornady, for 85-87 grain bullets, max load of H-4895 is 35.3 grains. page 249 of the same book, max load for a 70 grain bullet using H-4895 is 37.8 grains. Either my book is wrong or your on the wrong page???



I apologize, wrong pape!.I was looking at the 6mm Rem. But still..You may have missed the sweet spot. IMO I would take the the smallest group and work with that, up or down in powder charge, if you are not happy with 5/8 group. Were the groups opening as you went up to max? Also +1 with Stu
 
I always shoot three shot groups.So long as you shoot several you'll see the same thing.I just allow the barrel to cool between groups.
 
Maybe I should explain my group size better. The sizes I quoted were after the .244 deduction. Largest group was a 1.157 before the math. Smallest was a .976. Granted, not to bad for a stock rifle, I'm just always searching for the best of the best.
 
I've been shooting for a couple decades, haven't seen a flier yet. As long as the rifle isn't mounted to a fixed object with no shooter touching it, I don't think I'll ever see one. Personally out of a 5 shot group I will ALWAYS have one low left, doesn't matter on the gun. On a 3 shot group, I will always have 1 low left. On a 10 shot group etc. Once or twice I've had one high right. It's always been me, always will be me.

I'm not shooting competition so I just ignore the one I pitch out of the group. I know it will be there so there's no point in worrying about it
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyI've been shooting for a couple decades, haven't seen a flier yet. As long as the rifle isn't mounted to a fixed object with no shooter touching it, I don't think I'll ever see one.

You still won't see one. If you shoot enough rounds from the machine rest, you'll see all those fliers just disappear into the group. Because they aren't fliers. They are just another shot landing somewhere within the circle of probability for that rifle.

Ignoring scope issues, of course.

Bedding issues, gets into what ones definition of flier is, but to me, those aren't fliers, they are just showing the true circle of probability for the rifle in it's current state.

- DAA
 
Back
Top