primers?

Originally Posted By: Stu FarishBeen using WSR primers in my Colt since 1995. Never had a problem of any sort with them.

I had one slam fire with win primers which scared the bejezzus out of me. Since I have quite a few more to burn up, I switched out all my pins and haven't worried about it any more.
 
I ave used almost a full brick of 1000 federal 200 primers and they have the thinest cup of all according the chart on page one. I have heard that Winchestor primers are not "as safe" in AR rifles and have steered clear of them for some time, but have used them in the past with no ill effects.
 
You guys can play in the street and get away with it too ...... for a while.
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Originally Posted By: Stu Farishyeah, I guess 19 years is "a while"
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Now watch, I'll have one pop next time I hit the range...


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Stu, I sincerely hope not!
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It would take me a year to drag up the info again, but there were tests ran a while back about the mythical "slam fire" with ARs, and the results were that while most primers are safe in reloads, there were times when the primers weren't seated properly that resulted in the unwanted auto-fire. This was attributed to possibly primer pockets that weren't cleaned enough causing the primer to stand off a little, and otherwise faulty reloading practices. The primers with the thicker cups were less likely to fire during these tests. Now ... I'm as careful as anyone out there with my reloads. Especially since my son and wife shoot them. But any of us can make a mistake. If using a primer with a harder cup reduces the chances of an issue I'm going to go that route. Like I said, the cost increase is negligible. Why not just switch on the next purchase?

If you guys want to see how close you are getting to having a problem, the next time you shoot your rifle take a chambered round out (that was loaded from the magazine after firing another one) and look at the primer. If there's a sizable dent there, you can decide for yourself what the appropriate actions may or may not be. You won't find a dented primer by just chambering the round by hand, though.
 
Originally Posted By: HidalgoYou guys can play in the street and get away with it too ...... for a while.
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Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: Hidalgo

If you guys want to see how close you are getting to having a problem, the next time you shoot your rifle take a chambered round out (that was loaded from the magazine after firing another one) and look at the primer. If there's a sizable dent there, you can decide for yourself what the appropriate actions may or may not be. You won't find a dented primer by just chambering the round by hand, though.

The "sizable dent" was the very reason I switched all my pins to titanium. Now my dents are barely noticeable no matter what primer I use.
 
Might be why I never had a problem. While I don't bother with pistol rounds, all my rifle brass, regardless of caliber, gets the primer pockets uniformed when new & cleaned with the uniformed as part of my case prep work before being reloaded.
 
Originally Posted By: Stu FarishMight be why I never had a problem. While I don't bother with pistol rounds, all my rifle brass, regardless of caliber, gets the primer pockets uniformed when new & cleaned with the uniformed as part of my case prep work before being reloaded.


Stu, you'd be surprised how many people never run a brush in a primer pocket. Let alone a uniformer .....
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I'd say that 50% of the reloading public doesn't even own one.
 
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Originally Posted By: HidalgoMike, I would NOT use WSR primers in my ARs. CCI BR4 are a much better choice and the cost difference per primer is almost nothing. Primers are plentiful in most locations now.

Makes me wonder what CatShooter would have to say on the matter.

Remington ran Lake city from 1941 till 1984 and used the Rem 7 1/2 primers in all the 5.56 ammo to light off harder to ignite Winchester ball powders that had more deterrent coatings. And the 7 1/2 primers are marked "bench rest" primers and are called by many mini flame throwers and have a cup thickness of .025.

5Remington75_zps2b532d7c.jpg


3CCIBR4_zpsa43a3c3a.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: KenlguyOriginally Posted By: Hidalgo

If you guys want to see how close you are getting to having a problem, the next time you shoot your rifle take a chambered round out (that was loaded from the magazine after firing another one) and look at the primer. If there's a sizable dent there, you can decide for yourself what the appropriate actions may or may not be. You won't find a dented primer by just chambering the round by hand, though.

The "sizable dent" was the very reason I switched all my pins to titanium. Now my dents are barely noticeable no matter what primer I use.

The reason the thicker cups of .025 are recommended is because the greatest chance of a slam fire happening is when loading a single round without the magazine to slow down bolt velocity. Both the M14 and M16 had their firing pins lightened during the early testing phase of their development for this very reason.
 
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Mil spec primers are not absolute protection against slam fires in gas guns, but they definitely provide added insurance. Not only do the CCI® No. 34 and No. 41 primers have heavier cups, the priming compound is different than compound used in regular commercial primers:

Quote: CCI® No. 34 and No. 41
MILITARY RIFLE PRIMERS


Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

It is a good idea to run your thumb across the face of the case head as you remove it from the press to check for possibility of a high primer and to run each case through a case headspace gauge to insure proper fit in the chamber of your rifle.

As pointed out by CCI above, other factors that can contribute to a slam fire are:

Quote:*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.

Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: hm1996Mil spec primers are not absolute protection against slam fires in gas guns, but they definitely provide added insurance. Not only do the CCI® No. 34 and No. 41 primers have heavier cups, the priming compound is different than compound used in regular commercial primers:


Regards,
hm

How did Remington and Winchester get by not having CCI #41 and #34 primers, Meaning the Remington 7 1/2 primer went through the testing phase of M16 development long before the so called CCI milspec primer was ever thought about. Second, the only difference in the CCI #41 and #34 primers is the anvil is shorter and thus requiring a harder blow to set it off.

From the CCI website

Mil-spec sensitivity
Initiator mix optimized for ball/spherical propellants
Available in large (No.34) and small (No. 41) rifle
Use the same data as CCI Magnum primers

Now go back up and look at the 7 1/2 mini flame thrower.

And the military requires the primer to be seated .008 below the rear of the case.

m14chamber_zps93174da1.jpg


So all you need are Remington 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 primers that were used by Remington for the M1 Garand, M14 and M16 rifles when they ran Lake City.
 
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Originally Posted By: bigedp51Makes me wonder what CatShooter would have to say on the matter.

Remington ran Lake city from 1941 till 1984 and used the Rem 7 1/2 primers in all the 5.56 ammo to light off harder to ignite Winchester ball powders that had more deterrent coatings.

Remington operated LC from inception until 1984, followed by Olin Corp (Win.)until April, 2001, when ATK (owns CCI) took over operation of the plant.

Interesting article(s) by Clint McKee and others of Fulton Armory mentions problems w/M1/M1A's and even links to early problems w/M16 slam fire:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/AR-FAQs/SlamFire2.htm
http://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/AR-FAQs/SlamFire.htm



Originally Posted By: bigedp51How did Remington and Winchester get by not having CCI #41 and #34 primers, Meaning the Remington 7 1/2 primer went through the testing phase of M16 development long before the so called CCI milspec primer was ever thought about.


Remington's part in resolving the slam fire issues encountered w/the M16 is discussed in articles linked above as are the firing pin changes to the rifles.

ATK currently runs LCAAP, and since CCI is one of their companies, I would assume they are using CCI primers in current 5.56 and 7.62 ammo production. I have no experience w/either Win. or Rem. primers in gas guns, nor have I ever had a slam fire personally, but do have personal knowledge of one slam fire which occurred with Fed. Match primers and just read another account here:

Quote:Back to M1A/M14 rifles for a minute.
While shooting last time, I let a buddy shoot my S.A. M1A with cheap UMC ammo. While shooting it, there were times when it would slam-fire. This hasn't happend with match ammo, but it still bothers me that it has done it with other ammo.
Can someone give me the low-down on how to cure this problem?
D. West
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 09:11:27 (ZULU)


D.West...
My M21 slamfires with Fed F210M match primers... it's caused by the heavy weight of the firing pin hitting on its own speed.
CCI makes a hard military spec primer for this problem... one for the .223, and one for the.308... I think the number for .308 is CCI #34. Check with your dealer.
Pablito
USA - Wednesday, January 20, 1999 at 09:49:42 (ZULU) http://www.snipercountry.com/HotTips/Slamfire.htm

Since I found no mention regarding use of the 7 1/2 or 9 1/2 primers in gas guns on Remington's web site, I plan to continue to use the CCI's which are specifically made for that service.

Originally Posted By: CCI
CCI® No. 34 and No. 41
MILITARY RIFLE PRIMERS


Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

Originally Posted By: bigedp51 Second, the only difference in the CCI #41 and #34 primers is the anvil is shorter and thus requiring a harder blow to set it off.

From the CCI website

And the military requires the primer to be seated .008 below the rear of the case.

m14chamber_zps93174da1.jpg


So all you need are Remington 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 primers that were used by Remington for the M1 Garand, M14 and M16 rifles when they ran Lake City.


Mil Spec primers will not protect against dirty chambers, broken firing pins, oversized cartridges, etc. So,

Originally Posted By: hm1996It is a good idea to run your thumb across the face of the case head as you remove it from the press to check for possibility of a high primer and to run each case through a case headspace gauge to insure proper fit in the chamber of your rifle.

As pointed out by CCI above, other factors that can contribute to a slam fire are:

Originally Posted By: CCIEffective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.

Regards,
hm
 
Thanks for all the info, Great help. I ran across 1k CCI #41 primers. Now to load up some brass. I have 250 55g V-max bullets I was planning to use in my AR. They don't have a cannelure, is that gonna be a prob with feeding? Has anyone tried the Hornady 55g btsp w/ cannelure (bulk bullets)? Accurate? Performance on game?

Mike
 
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