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varminter185

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Hey guys heres a few question for the guru's. If possible, please answer within the guidelines of my components. I know there are better powders. Namely h4350 but I want to learn to tune rounds to my rifle since everyones is different! I have a small quantity of h4350, but a large quantity of imr 4350. My berger vld's 140 grain came in today, .612 BC .313 g7 bc.. trying to reach 2750-2800 fps....

doing some playing around with a dummy proofing round I created. I found the jam length is 2.940 coal, this has a calculated seating depth of .362 inches. Putting it just inside the neck at the shoulder. dont like jamming rounds into the lands.. so im going to do the berger sweetspot tuning to find the jump that they like best.

So now my question is. Berger hasnt listed imr 4350 in their book only h4350. Some intense digging I found a few suggestions. To take the min load for h4350 listed and work up .2 grains from there to find max load, then to begin development in those parameters. Does this sound acceptable and safe?

Next, when finding the sweetspot jump depth. Do you find a phenomenal shooting load at a standard seating depth to find a node and then start changing the seating depth to tune?

Or take a mid charge and tune seating depth then find charge node for that depth? Theres no mention of the process in the manual?

I plan to work up the max load parameters over a chrono, mid 40-50s temperature. And stop when I near 2800 or pressure signs appear, if the node is slightly below that I guesstimate that pressures at a higher temp would still be acceptable, true?

Silly questions I know, but I want to get this right, good LR practice takes accurate ammo. And I want to make the best this rifle deserves!
 
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I always start with a full grain under Manx and load 1 each to 1 grain over book max to check for pressure sign. Seat long to start. Imr burns faster that the H counterpart so I think you'll be fine doing the way your looking at. Didn't say what caliber your running but I'll be doing the same with my 6-06 in a few weeks using imr4831
 
They are three ( IMR,accurate,hodgdon) 4350 powders together on the burn rate chart i looked at so load data should be pretty much the same.
 
Originally Posted By: nastynatesfishI always start with a full grain under Manx and load 1 each to 1 grain over book max to check for pressure sign.

Is that Manx supposed to be min or max?

I recently did some with work with my 6x47L and IMR 4350 and 87gr vmax.

The minimum load from Bergers book gave me a sticky bolt and velocity 50fps faster than their max listed load. Starting a full grain under max would have been a dangerous situation in this case.

OP.
Pick a seating depth and work with it. When you find a powder charge that's shooting fairly well then play with it a bit if you would like.
 
They don't have anything for the bergers, and im hesitant to use other 140 data, different type of bullet, may have issues, I know some will say a 140 is a 140, ive tried doing the differences thing before and used data from a heavier bullet to compare the charge differences and surmised a load. Didnt turn out very well
 
Originally Posted By: varminter185They don't have anything for the bergers, and im hesitant to use other 140 data, different type of bullet, may have issues, I know some will say a 140 is a 140, ive tried doing the differences thing before and used data from a heavier bullet to compare the charge differences and surmised a load. Didnt turn out very well

A 140 is a 140.

If you need exact bullet/powder data to load your going to be limited to what you can do because these bullet and powder companies can't cover everything. You can absolutely use 140 data from another bullet and if you work your load starting low like your supposed to, you will never have a problem.

Hodgdons used to do a hard bound manual that was my favorite. It listed generic bullet weights with all the powders and data for them. No specific bullets were listed. Too bad they still don't make them, they were great.
 
Originally Posted By: FurhunterOriginally Posted By: varminter185They don't have anything for the bergers, and im hesitant to use other 140 data, different type of bullet, may have issues, I know some will say a 140 is a 140, ive tried doing the differences thing before and used data from a heavier bullet to compare the charge differences and surmised a load. Didnt turn out very well

A 140 is a 140.

If you need exact bullet/powder data to load your going to be limited to what you can do because these bullet and powder companies can't cover everything. You can absolutely use 140 data from another bullet and if you work your load starting low like your supposed to, you will never have a problem.

Hodgdons used to do a hard bound manual that was my favorite. It listed generic bullet weights with all the powders and data for them. No specific bullets were listed. Too bad they still don't make them, they were great.

+1. Find a load manual or 2 that list the powder you want with the bullet weight you want, compare the data...start low and work up.
 
Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorOriginally Posted By: FurhunterOriginally Posted By: varminter185They don't have anything for the bergers, and im hesitant to use other 140 data, different type of bullet, may have issues, I know some will say a 140 is a 140, ive tried doing the differences thing before and used data from a heavier bullet to compare the charge differences and surmised a load. Didnt turn out very well

A 140 is a 140.

If you need exact bullet/powder data to load your going to be limited to what you can do because these bullet and powder companies can't cover everything. You can absolutely use 140 data from another bullet and if you work your load starting low like your supposed to, you will never have a problem.

Hodgdons used to do a hard bound manual that was my favorite. It listed generic bullet weights with all the powders and data for them. No specific bullets were listed. Too bad they still don't make them, they were great.

+1. Find a load manual or 2 that list the powder you want with the bullet weight you want, compare the data...start low and work up.


Guess I have to get out of the monolithic bullet mindset, this is the first time I have ventured away from all copper bullets since my bad experience with a lead core, I'll compare data for similarly shaped bullets based on weight and charge and work up from the lowest I find, loading one round at each step and firing them for pressure, thanks for the advice and I'll report back, trying to develope a better loading procedure, and step out of the box I've been in
 
If you are only going to load with data for THE bullet manufacturers you are using, then you also need to shoot that load in the same universal receiver they use. (In a lot of case) or what if they test in a Remington and you shoot a Savage with different twist. Then what?

Data is data and it varies wide from source to source often with the same components.

Start low work up and you will be both safe and fine.
 
Bullet/Powder companies issue data that will generally work with the common rifles available to the general public, just as their lawyers tell them to do...While they may publish higher velocities than the average shooter can achieve, that will be due to the test barrels they use and the pressure gauges involved..

If you ever take a tour of the Sierra Bullet plant and get a chance to see the test range they use, it consists of nothing more than a heavy barrel and action mounted in a secure block, similar to a 'rail' gun...Their loading manual lists data for every bullet they produce and they furnish data for various powders tested..

Using an identical 'non Sierra' bullet weight will produce similar, but not exact, results, but still safe unless the loader pushes the published envelop too much in an attempt to obtain extreme velocities....
 
Originally Posted By: varminter185 this is the first time I have ventured away from all copper bullets since my bad experience with a lead core,

i would like to hear about you bad experiance with lead core bullets.
 
the burn rates are pretty much the same on those powders but if your concerned just drop down a few tenths and start testing.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: varminter185 this is the first time I have ventured away from all copper bullets since my bad experience with a lead core,

i would like to hear about you bad experiance with lead core bullets.

Last deer I shot with a lead core took two rounds from a 30'06 to the chest, still ran over 400 yards with very little blood to track. These rounds failed to expand and only punched two 30 cal or slightly larger holes. These were a soft point by nosler I believe, its been a while.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter185Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: varminter185 this is the first time I have ventured away from all copper bullets since my bad experience with a lead core,

i would like to hear about you bad experiance with lead core bullets.

Last deer I shot with a lead core took two rounds from a 30'06 to the chest, still ran over 400 yards with very little blood to track. These rounds failed to expand and only punched two 30 cal or slightly larger holes. These were a soft point by nosler I believe, its been a while.

interesting. so you have better results from all copper bullets? how many game animals have you shot with them?
 
Only one with the monolithic, however it was a bang flop DRT situation . (Edit** the shot with the monolithic was the same as the lead core. 100 yards right behind the shoulder).. I started my bachelors after that, and havent been hunting in the last 4 years. Now im unhappy with the lack of consistency that I experienced recently in another rifle and switched to a 50 grain zmax from hornady. So now im looking to reconvert back to higher end bullets for consistency and possibly game performance, so far im impressed, and thinking that I may have had a bad lot in the past. But I dont shoot if im not sure and that one deer shattered my confidence, and it wasnt a hail mary 700 yard poke, this deer was shot at 75 yards. And a follow up at approx 100, so there should gave been plenty of energy to expand.
 
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Made it out to the range today to find out what pressures IMR 4350 would show when loaded with 140 berger vld's. Took data from 3 manufacturers and averaged min-max loads. The results were suprising actually... starting at 37.5 grains I worked up through the ladder in .2 increments, to 41.3 grains. The picture started out with 6 rounds aimed at the bottom of the triangle. Because they werent climbing like I assumed, I changed my point of aim to the center and continued the string, 41.3 grains gave me 2741 fps loaded at 2.926 inches. This is just under the jam length by .003 inches... pressure signs were minimal, to non existent. At 40.9 grains the B was visible - but at 41.3 grains the B on the benchrest primer was no longer visible but bolt lift never changed. I could probably get another .5 grains with no change and slightly higher velocity.

Things are looking good for this round, seems it may like anything I throw at it, still have development to do. But I may beable to make it a one holer!
 
See those 3 shots grouped together right under the 3U line?

Whatever those were.. I'd be inclined to load up a few 5 shot strings of those and shoot them again.
 
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