New 6.5 Grendel
- Thread starter Stu Farish
- Start date
I'll keep it in mind. I need an upper for my wife's new rifle but this would be more than we can do right now. Maybe a bit down the road.
Sounds like you need to talk to Rich.
Originally Posted By: ICU22-250I'm glad I got this conversation started, learn something new every day, who is it that specializes in this round, so I know who to talk to when I'm ready. Is this different than the 6mm AR cartridge.
That would be Ritch on the banner below. I'm also a Pro Staff for RPG.
The shoulder location is slightly different with the 243 LBC that Ritch does is a just a tiny bit taller. Same dies with a slight performance improvement becuse of the barrels it is chambered in being polygonal. Of course the chamber has a few other nuances in different free bore and leade.
Greg
That would be Ritch on the banner below. I'm also a Pro Staff for RPG.
The shoulder location is slightly different with the 243 LBC that Ritch does is a just a tiny bit taller. Same dies with a slight performance improvement becuse of the barrels it is chambered in being polygonal. Of course the chamber has a few other nuances in different free bore and leade.
Greg
HeavyRevy
New member
Guy I hunt with has shot a Bushmaster Varminter for years hunting coyotes. He has always loaded ammo to the "hot" side. Went to a Grendel this year and said almost every running shot he was shooting behind them. Something to keep in mind when shooting your new rifle. Would be nice to chrony them to see what the difference is.
The grendel is slower than a 223. Lighter bullets obviously can close that gap some, I'd have to look up data to see how much.
I used Hornady factory ammo to get it on paper & zero'd at 100 yards, will eventually result in another 100 pieces of brass.
I bought a variety of Hornady bullets to try loading, with new Hornady brass, AA2505 & CCI 450 primers to start with.
I do have some other powders on the shelf, such as some Varget, but I hesitate to mess with any that I don't have much of when it's still hard to replace. I also have a good stock of other small rifle primers, but the 450's took a while to get. When I finally found them I was able to buy 1000.
I used Hornady factory ammo to get it on paper & zero'd at 100 yards, will eventually result in another 100 pieces of brass.
I bought a variety of Hornady bullets to try loading, with new Hornady brass, AA2505 & CCI 450 primers to start with.
I do have some other powders on the shelf, such as some Varget, but I hesitate to mess with any that I don't have much of when it's still hard to replace. I also have a good stock of other small rifle primers, but the 450's took a while to get. When I finally found them I was able to buy 1000.
I have 95 gr VMax, 123 & 129 gr SST's on hand.
Originally Posted By: HeavyRevyGuy I hunt with has shot a Bushmaster Varminter for years hunting coyotes. He has always loaded ammo to the "hot" side. Went to a Grendel this year and said almost every running shot he was shooting behind them. Something to keep in mind when shooting your new rifle. Would be nice to chrony them to see what the difference is.
That intriqued me so I ran some numbers.
A 123 Nolser at 0.510 BC at 2650 TOF at 200 is 0.242 at 500 it is 0.678 Lead on 10 MPH coyote at 200 is 42.6" at 500 119.4"
A 50 VMX 223 at BC of 0.242 at 3250 TOF at 200 is 0.212 at 500 it is 0.682 lead on 10 MPH coyote at 200 37.3" at 500 120"
So the 223 is 0.03 seconds faster at 200. 5" lead distance. Those are some very short coyotes.
Going to a lighter bullet in the 6.5 will narrow these down quite a bit.
Greg
That intriqued me so I ran some numbers.
A 123 Nolser at 0.510 BC at 2650 TOF at 200 is 0.242 at 500 it is 0.678 Lead on 10 MPH coyote at 200 is 42.6" at 500 119.4"
A 50 VMX 223 at BC of 0.242 at 3250 TOF at 200 is 0.212 at 500 it is 0.682 lead on 10 MPH coyote at 200 37.3" at 500 120"
So the 223 is 0.03 seconds faster at 200. 5" lead distance. Those are some very short coyotes.
Going to a lighter bullet in the 6.5 will narrow these down quite a bit.
Greg
R15 Predator
New member
Greg, I just picked up a used 243 LBC off of this forum with a BHW barrel. Would you mind shooting over some of the secret recipes? Damon@DamonGettier.com.
Thanks
Thanks
Originally Posted By: R15 PredatorGreg, I just picked up a used 243 LBC off of this forum with a BHW barrel. Would you mind shooting over some of the secret recipes? Damon@DamonGettier.com.
Thanks
If you have the decoder ring..............Drink more Ovaltine!!!
I'll send thme out tomorrow.
Greg
Thanks
If you have the decoder ring..............Drink more Ovaltine!!!
I'll send thme out tomorrow.
Greg
Will try for a range trip next weekend. I know have loads to try out using 95gr VMax, 13 & 129gr SST's, Benchmark, 8208 & AA2520 & a couple different primers.
The range is small but nice. It's biggest negative is that it's 50 miles from here.
The range is small but nice. It's biggest negative is that it's 50 miles from here.
Worked up all my fired brass yesterday, about 160 cases. Resize/decap, primer pockets uniformed/cleaned, trimmed & flash holes deburred, cleaned again.
I weighed them all, with a low of 116 grains & a high just over 120, most were either about 117.5 or 118.5, so while I do have some variance none are hugely out.
I weighed them all, with a low of 116 grains & a high just over 120, most were either about 117.5 or 118.5, so while I do have some variance none are hugely out.
Originally Posted By: CFranksGLShooter - What is the difference between the 243LBC and a 6mmAR Turbo 40 Improved?
Starting with the obvious. Both are based on the 6.5 Grendel necked down. Both are easy to make using the proper dies. The 243 LBC is a done duck when you size it down and has all the necssary forming to go for the gusto from sqaure one. The shoulder angle is the same as the parent.
The Turbo is going to need to be fire formed although the rounds are usable in it's main application in NRA XTC matches. I am guessing there is a false shoulder formed when they neck down the 6.5 case but I could be wrong on that. My gut tells me that is how it is done but that isn't much neck bump in there to hold it. I SUSPECT they are trying to jam the lands but shooting them in the magazine fed parts of HP would precluded that unless the magazine is cut out allowing for greater than 2.300 as they aren't going to reach the lands with lighter bullets without that. A 105 could be used but that is going to be a boiler room stealer for sure. My understanding is the guys do very well at the short lines while fire forming.
Dies are not to bad at $219.00 a set a with the good seater. That is a bit more thna the 243 LBC. I am sure there are several sources for those besides Whitley. Obviously more case capaicty on the Turbo vs the LBC. I could find no site on the number there.
Reality sets in when you look at the two cartidges side by side. Same bolt head size as the 6.5 Grendel. We know that this has some limitations in the pressures it can handle. The LBC is basically same same case capacity as the Grendel. Now we blow the shoulder out and want to go for the gusto. Bolt longevity is always a concern when you push any of the Grendels so this one is going to raise the ante on pressures. Good quaility bolt material is going to be needed.
Numbers are inpressive but numbers can be deceiving unless we dig deep. . The loads listed on 6MMAR.com are all listed as over magazine lenght and some way past what we can cheat at by windowing the front meaning it is a slow fire cartidge only with some pills IMHO.
Velocites of the 105's are up to 2900 with a 28" barrel in the Turbo. LBC's numbers I have shot were up to 2691 with some room to go in a 24". The 90 Turbos were running up to 2922, these are in shot load so they may or may not be MAX. The 243 LBC has yeilded 3000 with 95's in my personal 24 rifle. The 87's run 2960 in my LBC with more velocity available on demand. Of course ACCURACY is the determing factor for either cartidge. X's beat 0's every day.
Baesd on the speeds I see noramlly and the extra that Turbo is unquestionably capable of the question boilsdown to what do you need? I know I can push mine harder and extrapolated from the 105 Turbo data we can get more there too.
The XTC boys like it but in reality the best bullet out there BC wise for the LBC capacity and also stuck it in a Turbo at 600 yards you probably will never notice the diffence. If you chamber them both in a bolt gun and address 1000 yards you will see a drift towared the win with the Turbo. The LBC wil carry the mail but you know speed in the wind does make a difference in the next zip code.
I believe the AR is the weak link in our applications. The LBC can stress the platform and so can the Turbo only a bit more easily. Toss up for most with the nuances of usage dictating a final choice. For me" I like the LBC because it can literally do it all out of the nagazine and allows me to use a single die for all may varaints that is a bit of a budget extender in my case.
If a Turbo showed up at my door I'd shoot the snot out of if but for me I guess I'm just an LBC guy. I'm sure I am a bit biased as I own three of them so that is a consideration but certainly the Turbo is a sight notch up in performance potential with the right driver.
I hope that wasn't to convoluted but hope it does give some food for cogitation.
Greg
Starting with the obvious. Both are based on the 6.5 Grendel necked down. Both are easy to make using the proper dies. The 243 LBC is a done duck when you size it down and has all the necssary forming to go for the gusto from sqaure one. The shoulder angle is the same as the parent.
The Turbo is going to need to be fire formed although the rounds are usable in it's main application in NRA XTC matches. I am guessing there is a false shoulder formed when they neck down the 6.5 case but I could be wrong on that. My gut tells me that is how it is done but that isn't much neck bump in there to hold it. I SUSPECT they are trying to jam the lands but shooting them in the magazine fed parts of HP would precluded that unless the magazine is cut out allowing for greater than 2.300 as they aren't going to reach the lands with lighter bullets without that. A 105 could be used but that is going to be a boiler room stealer for sure. My understanding is the guys do very well at the short lines while fire forming.
Dies are not to bad at $219.00 a set a with the good seater. That is a bit more thna the 243 LBC. I am sure there are several sources for those besides Whitley. Obviously more case capaicty on the Turbo vs the LBC. I could find no site on the number there.
Reality sets in when you look at the two cartidges side by side. Same bolt head size as the 6.5 Grendel. We know that this has some limitations in the pressures it can handle. The LBC is basically same same case capacity as the Grendel. Now we blow the shoulder out and want to go for the gusto. Bolt longevity is always a concern when you push any of the Grendels so this one is going to raise the ante on pressures. Good quaility bolt material is going to be needed.
Numbers are inpressive but numbers can be deceiving unless we dig deep. . The loads listed on 6MMAR.com are all listed as over magazine lenght and some way past what we can cheat at by windowing the front meaning it is a slow fire cartidge only with some pills IMHO.
Velocites of the 105's are up to 2900 with a 28" barrel in the Turbo. LBC's numbers I have shot were up to 2691 with some room to go in a 24". The 90 Turbos were running up to 2922, these are in shot load so they may or may not be MAX. The 243 LBC has yeilded 3000 with 95's in my personal 24 rifle. The 87's run 2960 in my LBC with more velocity available on demand. Of course ACCURACY is the determing factor for either cartidge. X's beat 0's every day.
Baesd on the speeds I see noramlly and the extra that Turbo is unquestionably capable of the question boilsdown to what do you need? I know I can push mine harder and extrapolated from the 105 Turbo data we can get more there too.
The XTC boys like it but in reality the best bullet out there BC wise for the LBC capacity and also stuck it in a Turbo at 600 yards you probably will never notice the diffence. If you chamber them both in a bolt gun and address 1000 yards you will see a drift towared the win with the Turbo. The LBC wil carry the mail but you know speed in the wind does make a difference in the next zip code.
I believe the AR is the weak link in our applications. The LBC can stress the platform and so can the Turbo only a bit more easily. Toss up for most with the nuances of usage dictating a final choice. For me" I like the LBC because it can literally do it all out of the nagazine and allows me to use a single die for all may varaints that is a bit of a budget extender in my case.
If a Turbo showed up at my door I'd shoot the snot out of if but for me I guess I'm just an LBC guy. I'm sure I am a bit biased as I own three of them so that is a consideration but certainly the Turbo is a sight notch up in performance potential with the right driver.
I hope that wasn't to convoluted but hope it does give some food for cogitation.
Greg
scottmilk9
New member
Not to continue to hijack Stu's thread, but was Les Baer the originator of the .243 lbc?
safe to say that the wheels fell off this thread a while back LOL
but I don't know the answer to that question.
but I don't know the answer to that question.
Originally Posted By: scottmilk9Not to continue to hijack Stu's thread, but was Les Baer the originator of the .243 lbc?
Sure he did the 243 LBC following his 264 LBC introduction. He does not sell the 243 last time I looked at his site. In fact he never had a reamer made though he did do a drawing on the cartidge.
There are maybe a half dozen variations out there that don't have one spit of difference in performance other than a fan boy/maker name attached to them. They were developed independently all over the country at the same time. The version by Whitley was being done by another loader with a small varaition in parallel with no knowledge of one of the other. Not a lot under the sun doesn't get reinvented.
Greg
Sure he did the 243 LBC following his 264 LBC introduction. He does not sell the 243 last time I looked at his site. In fact he never had a reamer made though he did do a drawing on the cartidge.
There are maybe a half dozen variations out there that don't have one spit of difference in performance other than a fan boy/maker name attached to them. They were developed independently all over the country at the same time. The version by Whitley was being done by another loader with a small varaition in parallel with no knowledge of one of the other. Not a lot under the sun doesn't get reinvented.
Greg