Ken Waters?

ninehorses

ninehorses

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I know he was a old gun writer from the 1930's through ?

Some of the YouTubers are quoting his "Pet Loads" book. Supposedly, about measuring a once fired factory case at the web. Then resizing it, reloading it with your starting load powder and bullet, and firing it. Then measuring the web again. If the web isn't any larger than the once factory fired case, then your O.K. on pressure. Resize another once fired case, increase the powder charge and fire again, and measure the web. Until the web gets larger than the once fired factory round, then you have reached your maximum load, and need to back down.

Has anybody heard of this nonsense? Anyone have the book? Page 8.

Supposedly there's another old book "Precision Handloading" by John Withers that professes this method as well. page 157.

To me it is BUNK! What do you experts say?
 
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Originally Posted By: ninehorsesI know he was a old gun writer from the 1930's through ?

Some of the YouTubers are quoting his "Pet Loads" book. Supposedly, about measuring a once fired factory case at the web. Then resizing it, reloading it with your starting load powder and bullet, and firing it. Then measuring the web again. If the web isn't any larger than the once factory fired case, then your O.K. on pressure. Resize another once fired case, increase the powder charge and fire again, and measure the web. Until the web gets larger than the once fired factory round, then you have reached your maximum load, and need to back down.

Has anybody heard of this nonsense? Anyone have the book? Page 8.

Supposedly there's another old book "Precision Handloading" by John Withers that professes this method as well. page 157.

To me it is BUNK! What do you experts say?


BUNK... (Myth #263)

Ken was a good writer and for his time, he was knowledgeable... more so than most of his contemporaries.

But his writing was half a century ago.

Ken Waters might have been born in the '30's, but he wasn't writing in the '30's.

Firsts, there are wide variations in case head hardness (see my post on case head hardness)

Second, each time the case is fired, the case hardness changes, so it is moot.

Third, there is no correlation between case expansion and pressure.

Forth, how do you differentiate between the little head of a 223, and the very large, belted head of a 300 Winchester magnum.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...140#Post2681140


 
Didn't Withers say to use a new case out of the same lot? He even mentioend pulling down factory ammuntion to use the cases out of the same batch to compare expansion to compare factory with the "handload" IIRC. That would make more sense in comparing apples to apples vs a work hardened fired case that had been resized. I've got his book upstairs. Maybe I'll have time to look it up this weekend.

Waters' Pet Loads is quite the collection. He has got some stuff on the oldies that is fascinating and informative to me. It makes for light reading before I turn the lighst out.

Greg
 
I have used the man's loads repeatedly over the last 35 years and have yet to have a problem. I think he was pretty much a visionary regarding reloading for accuracy and yet not going over established pressure limitations.

just my $.02...
 
If I remember correctly it takes around 80,000 psi to stretch a primer pocket, while the case head will only expand around .0009, but don't quote me on this.(Could have been P.O. Ackley) You will have a hard time reading this with a caliper that is only accurate to .001.

Waters is talking about an area ahead of that, what he calls the pressure ring. I don't have the book, so my info is second hand.
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesIf I remember correctly it takes around 80,000 psi to stretch a primer pocket, while the case head will only expand around .0009, but don't quote me on this.(Could have been P.O. Ackley) You will have a hard time reading this with a caliper that is only accurate to .001.

Waters is talking about an area ahead of that, what he calls the pressure ring. I don't have the book, so my info is second hand.

If the head hardness varies, then there is no way you can accurately measure anything... it sounds soooooo scientific, but it means nothing.
 
I've got Water's book, as well as Ackley's and they are very interesting reads. As mentioned, they must be taken into perspective. Case head expansion was an accepted method of estimating pressure back then. IIRC, Speer used the method in several of their early loading manuals.
 
Originally Posted By: DoublessI have used the man's loads repeatedly over the last 35 years and have yet to have a problem. I think he was pretty much a visionary regarding reloading for accuracy and yet not going over established pressure limitations.

just my $.02...

I too enjoyed Waters contributions. And for sure, he was ahead of his time when it came to cartridges and their workings.

I loved reading Elmer Keith too. And he knew reloading from doing it. And Elmer often did not know what load was going to be too hot until the gun he was trying it in blew up. God, but I would just love to have some of those guns he destroyed testing his loads. The SAA Colts that he hand grenaded alone would be worth a fortune. At least if they were in their original condition anyway.
 
Yeah Ken Waters' Pet Loads is pretty much my all time favorite reloading data reference. It is getting a bit dated because of newer cartridges, powders, and bullets but all the old standbys are there with interesting history and personal hunting stories thrown in as well. I see is at reloading info for hunters primarily. He is still alive I think as I haven't heard of his passing-a big salute is extended to him for all his work and data.
 
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