A decision to make......

slugger

New member
ok, my plans are now up in the air...

I have a bazillion rounds of older Winchester Super X factory 25-06 shells. They shoot just fine, just don't group as well as I would like in my rifle. Sooooooo I thought that I would just pull the bullets and re-use the powder and test with some 115gr Berger VLD Hunting bullets. I have had super good luck with the Bergers in my other rifles, just by changing the seating depth. Didn't even worry about powder selection.

Ok, so far so good, but when I went to pull the older factory I noticed that they are 120gr Positive Expanding loads.. UGH!!! I thought they were 115gr for some reason.

Now my question, would my plans still work the same.

IE: Pull bullet, re-seat a Berger at depth A and test fire, repeat until happy.

I should get a little less pressure with the Bergers due to weight, but the bearing surface is longer, so that may be offset.

Thoughts?
 
A couple of things come to mind...

Do you know what kind of powder is in there?
If so, are you going to reduce and do a load workup, or just stuff the bullets on top of the existing charge?

Also, whenever I have to pull bullets it seems to reduce the neck tension on the case. Are you planning on neck sizing the case after you pull the bullet?

On the surface it sounds to me like you might be circumventing some safety measures, but perhaps I don't clearly understand what all you got cooking.
 
Cornstalker....

Yes they are indeed factory loaded ammo. I have shot literally hundreds of these same rounds from the same gun. But, like I said, they just don't group as well as I would like. They group at about 1.5". I had a friend of a friend that got 2 cases of these from an old sporting goods store that went out of business. They are not anyone else's reloads or anything like that and are still in the sealed factory boxes. This would be the same as going into Cabelas, buying a box of Winchester Super X 25-06 shells in 120gr and thinking about doing the same.

After pulling, they would indeed be neck sized back down.

There is a downside to this and that is once I go through the 400 or so that I have left, there are no more and at that time would have to make up my own load. But lets see.. at my current rate of fire for this rifle, 400 rounds would last around 10 years. It comes out for Deer and Antelope only...
 
Well, I guess my point is that if it is a factory load, you likely have no idea what kind of powder is in there. You also don't know how it will react to a different bullet type with the existing charge. For that matter, the same exact load can react differently in two different guns. (not implying that you are going to shoot the rounds in other guns, just trying to illustrate the variables)

Too many bad possibilities for me. If I disassembled the loads, I would flush the powder and do a proper workup with a known propellant type. My face may not be much to look at but I'd like to keep it,
smile.gif
so I would not be willing to swap bullet types and/or weights on top of an unknown powder.
 
I'm no expert but I think what you are doing is probably safer than shooting the factory ammunition with the 120s.

I'm ocd but I think I would pull about 10, weigh the power to get an average and then try and even up the charges before you seat the new bullets. Couldn't hurt.
 
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Originally Posted By: sluggerok, my plans are now up in the air...

I have a bazillion rounds of older Winchester Super X factory 25-06 shells. They shoot just fine, just don't group as well as I would like in my rifle. Sooooooo I thought that I would just pull the bullets and re-use the powder and test with some 115gr Berger VLD Hunting bullets. I have had super good luck with the Bergers in my other rifles, just by changing the seating depth. Didn't even worry about powder selection.

Ok, so far so good, but when I went to pull the older factory I noticed that they are 120gr Positive Expanding loads.. UGH!!! I thought they were 115gr for some reason.

Now my question, would my plans still work the same.

IE: Pull bullet, re-seat a Berger at depth A and test fire, repeat until happy.

I should get a little less pressure with the Bergers due to weight, but the bearing surface is longer, so that may be offset.

Thoughts?



There are several things to consider, but first off, you never said what kind of rifle it is and what kind of groups you are getting. If it is a Rem 750 semi auto, and you are getting 2" groups at 100 yards, then get down on your knees and thank God... but if it is a Remington 700 Sendero with the same size groups, then there is a problem

Also, do you know if the rifle is capable of what you want in accuracy.

And how much of an improvement do you expect. If you are getting 1.5" and want 1", then you are wasting your time.

That being said... are all 400 bazillion rounds of the same lot number? If not, they you need to understand that commercial ammunition is loaded with many different powders, even for the same bullet - if you have 5 different lot numbers, you could very easily have 5 different powders... and then your plans are screwed.

If you have one lot number, you still need to work up the load just like if you were starting out fresh with canister IMR-4831.
 
The rifle is a custom built by Norm Thompson out of Monument when he was still alive. More than capable of pushing out .5" groups with the right mix.

I would take .5 - .75" groups and call it a day.

Yes I understand about the variations between lot numbers and with that in mind, the same could be said (maybe not to the same extent) with reloading powders as well.

Thanks for the input.
 
I have on a couple of occasions with reloads(not factory) had a load that I have loaded for one weapon then sold it and gotten a new one of the same caliber and that load is now a little warm for that gun. I just pulled the bullets seated a 5-15gr lighter bullets right back in the cases and shot them. Worked Great! Neck tension was a little less but certainly enough to hold the bullets just fine.
Were the factory loads crimped?
 
Originally Posted By: slugger
Yes I understand about the variations between lot numbers and with that in mind, the same could be said (maybe not to the same extent) with reloading powders as well.



Well, not really. The variation between lot numbers in the blended "canister" powders that we use, might be 1/10th or 2/10ths of a grain.

Manufacturers do not use canister powders - they use non-graded bulk powders.

One lot of cartridges might have 51 gr of powder, the another lot might have 47grs of a completely different maker - one lot might be stick and another lot might be ball... so there is no comparison with our canister lot numbers, which are so close that you can just buy another can and keep on loading.

 
The factory loads have a light crimp. The bullets being pulled (I pulled a few to examine) were relatively easy to pull. They are a flat-base positive expanding point, with a cannelure.

They are loaded with 52.1 gr of a longer extruded powder.. It was not compressed so that would put it into the 4831 range of powders, knowing that factory are not near max loads.
 
Just did a test run of 3 ( all fired from a remote rest ) and there were absolutely no signs of pressure indicators.
wink.gif


I then did a quick first "test" of 3 for a group, yes 3 really isn't a group in some eyes. However, just by testing those 3 ( which were loaded to the1st of 4 recommended hunting COL distances by Berger ) I saw the group size shrink from 2.0" ( the old factory, which I verified again ) down to .75"...

Positive Progress!
 
ok, the best of the 3 shot test groups (.5"), opened up to .75" on the 5 shots, but that is a drastic improvement of what I was getting out of those rounds.

I'm good to go!
 
Originally Posted By: sluggerThe factory loads have a light crimp. The bullets being pulled (I pulled a few to examine) were relatively easy to pull. They are a flat-base positive expanding point, with a cannelure.

They are loaded with 52.1 gr of a longer extruded powder.. It was not compressed so that would put it into the 4831 range of powders, knowing that factory are not near max loads.


"not near max loads" just how do you make that assumption?

i shoot very little factory ammo, but have had factory rounds that cause sticky bolt lift and other pressure signs!

just 'cause it looks like a certain powder, and weighs out in about the same range, does not determine what it is.
 
Have you thought about just peddling the factory ammo and buying fresh components? I can see myself doing what you're doing and getting wet-dream results, and then not being able to duplicate it once the original stuff is used up.
 
I have almost 400 rounds of the old factory stuff.... Since this rifle is only used for Deer and Antelope here in Colorado, I only shoot it about 10-15 rounds a year, so I have a healthy supply...
 
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