hand vs factory loads for self defense?

brusso89

brusso89

New member
For those of you that reload, do you guys also load your self defense/ concealed carry rounds too? Other online threads people are saying that if you were to shoot someone in a self defense situation with hand loads it can look bad. Just like doing upgrades to your carry weapon like lighter triggers and better barrels. It all sounds fishy to me but just thought I'd see what you guys do.
 
Self defense shooting come in two types justified and not, if it's jusified all is good if not reloads and gun used will be the least of your worrys.
 
I use my reloads as my self defense loads. If I ever have to shoot someone with them I am not worried about it because they would have it coming.(Car jacking, Home invasion, etc.)
 
Dont use reloads is one of those things that is so often repeated that it has become gospel without any real world cases to be back it up, that I am aware of. I am pretty sure that it all started with a gun writer scratching his head while wondering what to write about that month. If a prosecutor trying you, or attorney suing you has the mindset to come at you over a reload it doesn't matter. If you used a factory fmj, Jhp or whatever, they will use it to paint you as a blood thirsty killer and will spin your choice in the direction they choose. I would use reloads in my personally owned guns if I loaded pistol ammo.
 
Wasn't that many years ago when you pretty much had to reload to get good defensive ammo. Makes me feel pretty old (OK, I am) to remember when you went to the store and asked for a box of .38 Special you got a box of 158 grain lead round nose. And if not those maybe a box of 148 grain wadcutters. That was pretty much it. Weren't no such thing as +P or +P+ ammo back then. A company called Super Vel pretty much changed that but still, it was many years before there was good defensive pistol ammo you could buy off the shelf.

Today there is a myriad of very decent revolver and pistol ammo out there in almost all calibers. Some of it like the .38 Special +P 158 grain SWC HP has been around for years now and is a proven fight stopper. Do your homework and read all you can on what works best for what you want it to do. Buy some and if it works in your gun, and it probably will, you are good to go.

I used to carry reloads in my serious social encounter weapons, but now I just use factory stuff. Living where I do I doubt that I ever have to use it but if I do I feel pretty confident that it will go a long way in guarding my gizzard.
 
Originally Posted By: gary paughSelf defense shooting come in two types justified and not, if it's jusified all is good if not reloads and gun used will be the least of your worrys.

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Youse what you have. Will you go to prison for using reloads in self defense situation? No but civil court lawyer will have your but. When I did my ccw class there was a guy in trial for that. Lawyers said he manufactured ammo to kill. They labeled him the "punisher" because his pistol had them punisher skull grips on it. I'm sure different cases but either way civil court is where you'd end up hung by the scumbags family who misses him after he's gone.
 
Tell me who & how they will know a difference. Most of the police force doesn't know a thing about hand loading, much less the lawyers???
 
Originally Posted By: nastynatesfish"When I did my ccw class there was a guy in trial for that. Lawyers said he manufactured ammo to kill. They labeled him the "punisher" because his pistol had them punisher skull grips on it."

So, if I paint my 45 cal, 1911 pink, and put butterfly grips on it, I walk??

Every CCW instructor I ever met, had war stories to impress or scare the students with... they are totally made up.

One I met opened every class with how dangerous ammo is and how frequently guns blow up because of bad factory ammo (Gag - double Gag)

If a criminal's attorney tried to indite you because of the artwork on your gun grip, or you make your own ammo, the judge would ream him hard, and you automatically get a mistrial.

 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: nastynatesfish"When I did my ccw class there was a guy in trial for that. Lawyers said he manufactured ammo to kill. They labeled him the "punisher" because his pistol had them punisher skull grips on it."

So, if I paint my 45 cal, 1911 pink, and put butterfly grips on it, I walk??

Every CCW instructor I ever met, had war stories to impress or scare the students with... they are totally made up.

One I met opened every class with how dangerous ammo is and how frequently guns blow up because of bad factory ammo (Gag - double Gag)

If a criminal's attorney tried to indite you because of the artwork on your gun grip, or you make your own ammo, the judge would ream him hard, and you automatically get a mistrial.



You would need "hello kitty" to warm the hearts of the jury.
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Originally Posted By: nastynatesfishYouse what you have. Will you go to prison for using reloads in self defense situation? No but civil court lawyer will have your but. When I did my ccw class there was a guy in trial for that. Lawyers said he manufactured ammo to kill. They labeled him the "punisher" because his pistol had them punisher skull grips on it. I'm sure different cases but either way civil court is where you'd end up hung by the scumbags family who misses him after he's gone.

Kinda depends on the case and the situation. Here in Colorado if its a home invasion or another situation covered by our states castle doctrine you are immune from any civil liability if its a justifiable shooting... Meaning you could shoot him with anything you wanted even if it had "make my day" painted on the side of it. Doesn't matter because the bad guys family can't even sue you for a Klondike bar.
 
Here's the real situation. A lot of those claiming to be "experts" out there, including CCW instructors, don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to these issues. They talk about details without understanding the big picture.

IF you shoot someone in a self defense situation, you have TWO legal problems. Here's where the self-appointed experts get dazed and confused.

Problem #1: Criminal proceedings. This one has already been mentioned.

Was the shoot legally justified and can it be classified as self-defense (or other justifiable use of force depending on the laws of the state?

If the investigation reveals the shooting was justified (or if it goes to trial and a jury decides it that way) your problems are over, right? WRONG!!! WRONG!!! This is where the "experts" get dazed and confused. They confuse the result of this first problem with the second problem you'll face.

Problem #2: The CIVIL trial.

This is where the family of the dead perp hire a lowlife bottom feeding lawyer and sue you in CIVIL court. They can pile on everything they want (depending on the state), infliction of emotional distress, their pain and suffering, there's a very long list, but the bottom line is they are after MONEY damages.

The outcome of Problem #1 has nothing to do with the civil trial. Even if the action was legally justified, you can still be sued successfully in civil court.

This is where the bottom feeding lawyer is going to make an issue out of everything. What color your gun was, what ammo, what color your underwear was, what TV shows you watch, what internet sites you visit, your sex life, EVERYTHING.

All if this will be twisted into a narrative about your mindset and motives. If you wore black boxer shorts the day of the shooting, this will be presented as a sign that you are obsessed with darkness and death.

You can't "defend" yourself by NOT using handloads because no matter what ammo you use, it will be made an issue. If you use hollow point factory loads, they will be called "cop killer" bullets during the trial. If you use self-defense specific loads, they will be presented as a sign you were a closet Rambo itching for a fight.

Simply choosing option B vs option A is meaningless, because whatever you did, it will be presented to the jury in an unfavorable light. That is the nature of civil trials.

Grouse
 
Originally Posted By: The Famous GrouseHere's the real situation. A lot of those claiming to be "experts" out there, including CCW instructors, don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to these issues. They talk about details without understanding the big picture.

IF you shoot someone in a self defense situation, you have TWO legal problems. Here's where the self-appointed experts get dazed and confused.

Problem #1: Criminal proceedings. This one has already been mentioned.

Was the shoot legally justified and can it be classified as self-defense (or other justifiable use of force depending on the laws of the state?

If the investigation reveals the shooting was justified (or if it goes to trial and a jury decides it that way) your problems are over, right? WRONG!!! WRONG!!! This is where the "experts" get dazed and confused. They confuse the result of this first problem with the second problem you'll face.

Problem #2: The CIVIL trial.

This is where the family of the dead perp hire a lowlife bottom feeding lawyer and sue you in CIVIL court. They can pile on everything they want (depending on the state), infliction of emotional distress, their pain and suffering, there's a very long list, but the bottom line is they are after MONEY damages.

The outcome of Problem #1 has nothing to do with the civil trial. Even if the action was legally justified, you can still be sued successfully in civil court.

This is where the bottom feeding lawyer is going to make an issue out of everything. What color your gun was, what ammo, what color your underwear was, what TV shows you watch, what internet sites you visit, your sex life, EVERYTHING.

All if this will be twisted into a narrative about your mindset and motives. If you wore black boxer shorts the day of the shooting, this will be presented as a sign that you are obsessed with darkness and death.

You can't "defend" yourself by NOT using handloads because no matter what ammo you use, it will be made an issue. If you use hollow point factory loads, they will be called "cop killer" bullets during the trial. If you use self-defense specific loads, they will be presented as a sign you were a closet Rambo itching for a fight.

Simply choosing option B vs option A is meaningless, because whatever you did, it will be presented to the jury in an unfavorable light. That is the nature of civil trials.

Grouse




What he said...

... which is the reason that many people put everything they own into personal corporations or trusts - if you own nothing, then no matter how low the bottom feeder is, he won't waste his time going after you.
 
Every CHL licensee needs to know that their is one certainty. The use of your weapon to defend yourself, justified or not, IS going to cost you in some form or fashion, be it monetarily or penally. Accept that fact, because it is fact.


Chupa
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter
What he said...

... which is the reason that many people put everything they own into personal corporations or trusts - if you own nothing, then no matter how low the bottom feeder is, he won't waste his time going after you.



Just so we don't continue to pass off more bad internet theories as good advice, these attempts to seal off assets by using trusts and corporations are, for all practical purposes, useless.

They sound good to amateurs and CCW instructors, and they certainly generate great fees for lawyers who are happy to oblige, but as a way of sealing off assets from a liability judgment, they are almost useless.

If you are a shareholder in a corporation or a beneficiary of a trust, then you have an asset. All assets (with only a few exceptions) have the potential to be taken as part of a civil judgment.

First of all, a corporation has to operate according to strict rules of governance. If it does not, then a court can later rule that it is not a corporation at all and therefore retract the protections that corporations operate under. The vast majority of people would not be able to keep up the rigorous requirements and the separation of personal and corporate assets, income, etc. I can assure you that most judges will see right through any corporation formed solely to protect the owner from personal liability.

Trusts are pretty much the same. You can't just place assets in a trust to keep them away from anyone you don't want to have them. There are a million details beyond this, but safe to say that they do NOT represent an easy-peasy way to duck liability and seal off assets from judgments.

The civil aspect is far and away the least understood and most troubling. A criminal case is decided rather quickly, but a civil case can drag on for over a decade. Also, unlike a criminal case, there are no taxpayer-funded lawyers to defend you in a civil case. You'll be footing the bill from day 1. Even if you win, a civil case can easily eat up $100-500k in legal fees.

Grouse
 

I don't have the details (I don't own enough to worry), but I do know that there were two cases that made news where wealthy people were sued, and the plaintiff got nothing, because everything they defendants owned was isolated and un-attachable.
 
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