Pentagon to destroy $1B in ammunition

hm1996

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Quote:pentagon to destroy $1B in ammunition

Tom Vanden Brook,
USA TODAY 12:59 a.m. EDT April 28, 2014 SHARE 3394
WASHINGTON —

The Pentagon plans to destroy more than $1 billion worth of ammunition although some of those bullets and missiles could still be used by troops, according to the Pentagon and congressional sources.

It's impossible to know what portion of the arsenal slated for destruction — valued at $1.2 billion by the Pentagon — remains viable because the Defense Department's inventory systems can't share data effectively, according to a Government Accountability Office report obtained by USA TODAY.

The result: potential waste of unknown value.

"There is a huge opportunity to save millions, if not billions of dollars if the (Pentagon) can make some common-sense improvements to how it manages ammunition," said Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., and chairman of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. "Despite years of effort, the Army, Navy and Air Force still don't have an efficient process for doing something as basic as sharing excess bullets. This Government Accountability Office (GAO) report clearly shows that our military's antiquated systems lead to millions of dollars in wasteful ammunition purchases."

The Army and Pentagon, in a statement, acknowledged "the need to automate the process" and will make it a priority in future budgets. In all, the Pentagon manages a stockpile of conventional ammunition worth $70 billion.

The effect of inaccurate accounting of ammunition for troops at war was outside the scope of the study. However, there were limited supplies at times of .50-caliber machine gun and 9mm handgun ammunition at the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a senior military officer who spoke on condition of anonymity to talk about the issue.

"We simply cannot afford this type of waste and ineffectiveness," Carper said. "The (Pentagon) has a responsibility to efficiently manage its ammunition stocks, not only because it is important to be fiscally responsible, but also because our antiquated ammunition inventory systems can shortchange our war fighters and compromise their ability to complete their mission."

Other key findings from the report:

• The services have inventory systems for ammunition that cannot share data directly despite working for decades to develop a single database. Only the Army uses the standard Pentagon format; "the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps operate with formats that are obsolete."

• The services hold an annual conference to share information about surplus ammunition and swap bullets and other munitions as needed. Data about ammunition left over after the meeting disappears from the books, resulting in an unknown amount of good bullets headed to the scrap heap.

• The Army, although required by regulation, had not reported annually on its missile stockpile until last month, shortly before the GAO study was to be released.

The report illustrates the obsolete nature of the Pentagon's inventory systems for ammunition. A request for ammunition from the Marine Corps, for example, is e-mailed to the Army. The e-mail is printed out and manually retyped into the Army system because the services cannot share data directly. Not only is this time consuming, but it can introduce errors — by an incorrect keystroke, for example.

Waste, buying new ammunition while usable stockpiles exist, can occur "because the Army does not report information on all available and usable items," the report states. The annual conference among the services — although it saves about $70 million per year, according to the Pentagon — is inadequate. The services, in fiscal year 2012, exchanged 44 million items, including 32 million bullets for machine guns and pistols.

"Specifically, the Army's report does not include information from prior years about usable ammunition that was unclaimed by another service and stored for potential foreign military sales or slated for potential disposal," the report says.

Missiles are another source for concern, the report notes. The Army has an inventory of missiles, including Stingers, Javelins and Hellfires, that has totaled more than $14 billion in recent years. Hellfire missiles have been a weapon of choice for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the CIA-run Predator and Reaper drone missions to kill terrorists in places like Yemen.

The GAO found that the Army and its missile command "do not contribute to required annual report." The reason, Army officials told investigators, is that it "rarely has items to offer for redistribution."

Without its cooperation, the Army "risks others services spending additional funds to procure missiles that are already unused and usable in the Army's stockpile."

The Army, in a statement, said that it began offering that information to the other services last month.

In its recommendations, the GAO urged Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel to require the Army to make known information on all available for use by all services.

Follow @tvandenbrook on Twitter.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/polit...-waste/8145729/

Regards,
hm
 
Why wouldn't they Surplus the ammo to the public . It would fetch a reasonable compensation vs burning it up. It would also make a lot of shooters happy. Oh, I now see why that wouldn't work.
 
Originally Posted By: LongnkrnchAnd guess what, they'll turn right around and order 1.2B in replacement ammo. Great way to promote shortages to the public I'd say.


Absolutely... This is not new. Have a neighbor who is a disposal contractor for the US Government. He told me 2 years ago that he had 10,000 Pounds, yes that is pounds with a P of live .223 ammo that he was disposing of. And, 5,000 pounds of .223 brass. At the height of the ammo shortage!!
 
Quote:He told me 2 years ago that he had 10,000 Pounds, yes that is pounds with a P of live .223 ammo that he was disposing of.

You did offer to assist in the disposal, didn't you, Rocky?
lol.gif


Regards,
hm
 
As Vietnam was ending, I had a buddy that was on an aircraft carrier in the south china sea. Huey and loch choppers were flown out there to the carrier and pushed over into the sea. He said it went on for days. A Huey cost the military 250K and a civilian model cost 150K and Lady Bird was one of the top stock holders in Bell Helicopter. There were many political people and families got filthy rich over Vietnam.
 
Could it be they don’t want to chance the ammo manufacturers making ammo for the local militia’s (civilians).

Pentagon to destroy $1 billion worth of ammo. This makes sense because…?
Written by Allen West on April 28, 2014

Why is the Pentagon to destroy ammunition for our men and women in uniform while the Department of Homeland Security is buying up millions of rounds of ammunition? As we asked last week, why are we decimating our military while many government agencies are arming up?

You really have to wonder why, according to USA Today, “The Pentagon plans to destroy more than $1 billion worth of ammunition although some of those bullets and missiles could still be used by troops, according to the Pentagon and congressional sources. It’s impossible to know what portion of the arsenal slated for destruction — valued at $1.2 billion by the Pentagon — remains viable because the Defense Department’s inventory systems can’t share data effectively, according to a Government Accountability Office report obtained by USA TODAY. The result: potential waste of unknown value.”

Everyone complains about fraud, waste and abuse of American taxpayer dollars, and I will admit there is a degree of that in the Department of Defense (DoD), the Pentagon. I firmly supported — still do –an audit of the DoD when I sat on the House Armed Services Committee. But still, it makes you wonder.

Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., and chairman of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said, “Despite years of effort, the Army, Navy and Air Force still don’t have an efficient process for doing something as basic as sharing excess bullets. This Government Accountability Office (GAO) report clearly shows that our military’s antiquated systems lead to millions of dollars in wasteful ammunition purchases.” The Army and Pentagon, in a statement, acknowledged “the need to automate the process” and will make it a priority in future budgets. In all, the Pentagon manages a stockpile of conventional ammunition worth $70 billion.

Now, this last part is quite perplexing to me, having spent 22 years in the US Army as a combat artillery officer and being quite involved in ammunition management as a Brigade/Regimental operations officer, a Battalion Executive officer, and a Battalion Commander. We constantly received spreadsheets that were reconciled monthly for ammunition allocation and use. In the Army we have Division and Corps level Ammunition Officers whose sole mission is ammunition management, which is forecasted out and allocated yearly.

Excess ammunition? We were begging for excess ammunition for training purposes. And I recall on several occasions when I was an Army exchange officer with the II Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Lejeune working out some issues on ammunition transfer and training between XVIIIth Airborne Corps, Ft. Bragg. So what is this baloney?

Folks, this is why we need more men and women serving on Capitol Hill who have served in uniform and can raise the Bovine Excrement flag. It would also behoove these Members of the House and Senate who are on Armed Services committees to have staffers who are veterans and can provide proper insight and perspective.

However, more importantly, we need former servicemen and women in civilian leadership with oversight of the military who understand the tactical level processes and procedures so that at the higher strategic level, this type of foolishness does not occur. Instead, we have political nepotism and cronyism, as too many are positioned due to their campaign contributions or agenda allegiance, not because of their military experience or expertise.

USA Today says the GAO report illustrates the obsolete nature of the Pentagon’s inventory systems for ammunition. A request for ammunition from the Marine Corps, for example, is e-mailed to the Army. The e-mail is printed out and manually retyped into the Army system because the services cannot share data directly. Not only is this time consuming, but it can introduce errors — by an incorrect keystroke, for example.

Waste, buying new ammunition while usable stockpiles exist, can occur “because the Army does not report information on all available and usable items,” the report states. The annual conference among the services — although it saves about $70 million per year, according to the Pentagon — is inadequate. The services, in fiscal year 2012, exchanged 44 million items, including 32 million bullets for machine guns and pistols. Specifically, the Army’s report does not include information from prior years about usable ammunition that was unclaimed by another service and stored for potential foreign military sales or slated for potential disposal,” the report says.

All of which begs the simple question: who is in charge? Who is tracking ammunition production, allocation, usage, and redistribution? This is why a serious audit system is necessary. If a monthly reconciliation is done at the unit/installation level, there should at least be a quarterly reconciliation at higher levels. If that is being done, then we should have fail-safe systems as well as procedures and methods upgraded to ensure effective and efficient management.

This is unacceptable and I bet you could sell the excess usable 9 mm ammunition at a reduced price to civilian outlets — and make money for the DoD. But then that would mean you’re arming civilians…

http://allenbwest.com/2014/04/pentagon-destroy-1-billion-worth-ammo-makes-sense/
 
Originally Posted By: hm1996 Quote:He told me 2 years ago that he had 10,000 Pounds, yes that is pounds with a P of live .223 ammo that he was disposing of.

You did offer to assist in the disposal, didn't you, Rocky?
lol.gif


Regards,
hm


Yes... as a matter of fact, I did hm!! Unfortunately, they have inspectors that follow the truck from the point it is loaded to the disposal site. It's weighed when loaded, and weighed again when he reaches the disposal site. He said he's watched pretty closely with it. A lot of the stuff he disposes of he can carry off base to disassemble/destroy before scrapping, and even then the federal inspectors have to be present to determine it is properly unrecognizable, but ammo ain't on that list.
 
Originally Posted By: semo97As Vietnam was ending, I had a buddy that was on an aircraft carrier in the south china sea. Huey and loch choppers were flown out there to the carrier and pushed over into the sea. He said it went on for days. A Huey cost the military 250K and a civilian model cost 150K and Lady Bird was one of the top stock holders in Bell Helicopter. There were many political people and families got filthy rich over Vietnam.



That went on with everything, and will go on with all of the equipment in the gulf theatre. They claim it costs more to bring it back than it's worth, but I'm pretty sure it's more a matter of they'll have more equipment than they need back here for several years, and that would cause them to have to reduce their budgets for several years, and God forbid anyone ever REDUCE a government budget because as we all know you would then have to beg for increases in said budget again at some point.

 
lol
Only the military would worry about making sure that no one steals the small arms ammunition or used brass they are paying by the ton to throwing away.

So who is the Ammo whore now??
 
Biggest question I would have in this entire deal is... Why would you destroy ammo to begin with???

How about we increase the number of training missions and range time, and burn it up?

How about we leave it in those sealed ammo boxes until we need it?

How about we locate Klinger, and see what he can trade it for?

How about we give it to law enforcement for training purposes?

How about we offer it for sale to the civilian market?

I mean seriously... it's inside a cardboad box, in a vacuum sealed plastic bag, inside another plastic bag, inside an airtight metal ammo can; it can't possibly spoil. This is not to mention that keeping things for future use is not a big deal for the military, he11 they fed us Korean Era C-Rations when I was in the Air Force from '76 - '79. I'm pretty sure that if canned food can last 20+ years, and still not kill you, that canned ammo can last just as long, if not longer.

 
lol.. Exactly Rocky1

Not to mention the ammo cans are in a wood crate.

No one in the Military ever said. "darn.. I am just tired of shooting so much" Let them use it..

and like you said.. Give it to LE and or sell it in 100Lbs lots.

Or better yet, stop buying it, and use the stuff you are tossing first before ordering more. There is no reason for the systems to not communicate and not know where they are wasting it.

They seriously need to have Amazon come in and put a copy of the system they use in place. Give Amazon a tax break for a year, and it's done in a month.
 
Originally Posted By: Rocky1Biggest question I would have in this entire deal is... Why would you destroy ammo to begin with???

How about we increase the number of training missions and range time, and burn it up?
thumbup.gif


How about we leave it in those sealed ammo boxes until we need it?
thumbup.gif


How about we locate Klinger, and see what he can trade it for?
lol.gif


How about we give it to law enforcement for training purposes?
thumbup.gif


How about we offer it for sale to the civilian market?
thumbup.gif


Ummm. That was known as the Director of Civilian Marksmanship program until the DCM was destroyed by Bill Clinton in 1996.
frown.gif

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/fact-sheets/2004/the-civilian-marksmanship-program.aspx

I mean seriously... it's inside a cardboad box, in a vacuum sealed plastic bag, inside another plastic bag, inside an airtight metal ammo can; it can't possibly spoil. This is not to mention that keeping things for future use is not a big deal for the military, he11 they fed us Korean Era C-Rations when I was in the Air Force from '76 - '79. I'm pretty sure that if canned food can last 20+ years, and still not kill you, that canned ammo can last just as long, if not longer.

Guess things have changed since the 50's & 60's. We were often issued 81mm HE ammo for training that was so old that the rounds were rusted to the cardboard canisters which had to be peeled off the rounds with a bayonet. My platoon had a number of short rounds in the process as well as one failure to fire but gun crews trained with the ammo; it was not destroyed.

Regards,
hm
 
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