Best way to add forend pressure

R

Roger London

New member
I have a model 70 extreme weather that has almost sent me to the loony bin. I think I finally have a load that it likes, then it all falls apart again and I'm getting tired of burning powder and bullets to try and find something it likes. I really like the gun or it would have done headed down the road. Out of 6 factory loads and 3 different component bullets and 6 different powders I was about done. This stuff is too expensive and too hard to get to keep throwing it at this rifle. So out of desperation today, I put some pressure under the barrel with some plastic shims and, by golly, the loads that were floating around 3.5" suddenly dropped to 1.25". I used some old insurance ID cards that I had that are about the thickness of a credit card placed 3 thick. So now that it appears to need some forend pressure. It was free floated from the factory with a fluted sporter contour barrel and I'm thinking maybe it just isn't stiff enough to be free floated. So what is the best way to add forend pressure and make it permanent? I would assume bedding epoxy would be best, but how do you get it to the right thickness, applying adequate pressure? Or can the shims be trimmed and epoxied in with say, plastic welder epoxy?
 
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Wrap the barrel with electical tape out at the last 3/4- 1" of the stock . Use the shims you made as a guide. Put it together and shoot it, add more or less as needed. Once you find the sweet spot full lenght bed the barrel. Once it cured take off the tape and shoot it.


How flimsy is the stock ? Some of the cheap azz plastic stocks flex to much and either need to be stiffened or replaced.
 
It came factory in a B&C Medalist. It's pretty stiff. It came bedded at the recoil lug and the tang with a material that I would think is a little soft for bedding and I was able to peel it out with a pocket screwdriver. I re-bedded it in Marine Tex but it didn't change a thing. My wife had bought me a box of Hornady American Whitetail ammo and I was playing around with it and it was averaging 3.5+" groups. The shims brought it down to a third of what is was. I actually have hope again. This gun has been so erratic since I've had it. The only bullet that will consistently stay under 2" is the 120 Barnes TTSX, I might get one 3/4" group and the next may be 1 and 3/4" with very little rhyme or reason. My fear with full length bedding is the flutes causing a mechanic lock. If I use the method you described, do I go back and glass in where the tape was after the rest has set up?
 
Originally Posted By: Roger LondonI have a model 70 extreme weather that has almost sent me to the loony bin. I think I finally have a load that it likes, then it all falls apart again and I'm getting tired of burning powder and bullets to try and find something it likes. I really like the gun or it would have done headed down the road. Out of 8 factory loads and 4 different component bullets and 6 different powders I was about done. This stuff is too expensive and too hard to get to keep throwing it at this rifle. So out of desperation today, I put some pressure under the barrel with some plastic shims and, by golly, the loads that were floating around 3.5" suddenly dropped to 1.25". I used some old insurance ID cards that I had that are about the thickness of a credit card placed 3 thick. So now that it appears to need some forend pressure. It was free floated from the factory with a fluted sporter contour barrel and I'm thinking maybe it just isn't stiff enough to be free floated. So what is the best way to add forend pressure and make it permanent? I would assume bedding epoxy would be best, but how do you get it to the right thickness, applying adequate pressure? Or can the shims be trimmed and epoxied in with say, plastic welder epoxy?




This is the best way I have found to put up pressure on a barrel. You need to use rubber. Bungie cord, thick inner tube type rubber. You have to fit it to only give a bit of up pressure but you need to know it's pushing up on the barrel.

Honestly though, if you tell us what you are shooting and what powder bullet combos you have tried, we might be able to get you going with out the pressure point. I don't use this method any more because I have learned that it is possible to make a barrel shoot as good as it can with total free float. That is best.




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Originally Posted By: Roger LondonIt came factory in a B&C Medalist. It's pretty stiff. It came bedded at the recoil lug and the tang with a material that I would think is a little soft for bedding and I was able to peel it out with a pocket screwdriver. I re-bedded it in Marine Tex but it didn't change a thing. My wife had bought me a box of Hornady American Whitetail ammo and I was playing around with it and it was averaging 3.5+" groups. The shims brought it down to a third of what is was. I actually have hope again. This gun has been so erratic since I've had it. The only bullet that will consistently stay under 2" is the 120 Barnes TTSX, I might get one 3/4" group and the next may be 1 and 3/4" with very little rhyme or reason. My fear with full length bedding is the flutes causing a mechanic lock. If I use the method you described, do I go back and glass in where the tape was after the rest has set up?

Sorry I missed the fluting part. For that a piece of thin tape like packing tape on the barrel will cover the flutes ,so you can keep the channel round. Would not have to worry about that last 1" where the tape was. As a note... I've not done this myself, have talked to others and watched it done...

I would agree with the other guys, that I prefer free float on all my contours.

What scope ?
 
It's a Model 70 Extreme Weather Stainless in 7mm-08. So far for factory ammo I've tried Barnes Vor-TX 120 grain TTSX(best), Fed Premium 140 grain Nosler BT (Horrible), Federal fusion 140 gr.(2-2.5") Fed 150 gr. Hot Cor, Remington Core-lokt 140 gr.(Sucked), Hornady Superformance SST (2.5"), Hornady American Whitetail (3.5" before shims 1.25" after). I've tried Barnes 120 gr. TTSX with RL-15, Ramshot Big Game, IMR8208 XBR and RL-17. Sierra Pro Hunter 140s (some good groups, but also not consistent)with RL-17, RL-15, Ramshot Big Game and H4350. Nosler 120 BT with RL-17, Ramshot Big Game and H4350. I've tried varying seating depth up and down the scale of reasonable.

I'm not looking for benchrest champion accuracy. I'd just like to get to a good consistent 1.5" load preferably with a good fairly commonly available bullet. I'd think I'd like to try some 130 grain Speers if I'd could find some. It's one bullet weight I haven't tried. And I'd love to leave it free floated too, but I was pretty amazed at the difference those shimmed made.

I'm using a Nitrex 3x9x42 scope. I've tried my Sightron SII 3x9 and Buck Commander 2.5x10x42 with similar results.

Going to hit the sack now, will check back tomorrow.
 
Roger,
I have the same rifle in 243 and I had similar trouble. For whatever reason my rifle likes the spitzer style bullets over the boat tails. sierra 85's to be exact. the same weight sierra bt was around 3.5 inches where the sp was one hole over the same load of h4895. I also noticed that I had to stay around 15% below max or groups would open up dramatically. Very picky barrel for sure. I hope you figure it out.
 
This one also shows a preference for flat base bullets as far as it goes. I've shot some good groups with the Sierra Pro Hunters, but I've also shot some really bad ones. I don't think it would bother me as much if this weren't the singular most expensive firearm I currently own. I usually bring along my Remington 22-250 as an "is it me" check and I have yet to shoot a greater than 1" group with it with its load of choice. This Winchester has all the same treatment as that Remington, bedded into a B&C Medalist stock with the barrel free floated and a better trigger. I think I saw some Sierra 120 grain Pro Hunters at my local shop, I may have to get a box of those to try. Both of the 120's I've tried so far are boat tails, may the combo of 120 grain and flat base would help.
 
Make sure there's no stress being applied to the action via the magazine and bottom metal when your tightening the action screws. Stress on the action from the magazine or bottom metal will ruin accuracy. Your bottom metal should lay into the stock flat, at no point should it have to be sucked down with the action screws.

Hold the rifle butt on the table and your left hand covering the end of the stock and barrel. Loosen the forward or top action screw. If you feel the stock move in relation to the barrel while loosening that screw or the other one for that matter there's a bedding issue. It means your screws are using the action to pull the stock into place, causing undue stress on the action which isn't good. With the rear screw tight there should be no movement in the stock when loosening the front screw.

Whats your cleaning regimen? Is it copper fouled so bad it won't shoot?
 
I clean about every 20-25 shots. I use my Lucas bore guide religiously and the barrel has been Ultra Bore Coated. I only use patches with Montana extreme Bore Cleaner, then Copper Killer. It is kept quite clean, there is no visible copper when looking down the bore with a flashlight. I will check out the mag box/bottom metal situation when I get home.
 
Roger,,,Google "Rifle Fore End Pressure" on the main search engine (not the PM one) and see if you can locate a couple of articles on the subject...I remember reading a couple a few years ago when I was contemplating full length bedding one of mine...Some of the 'Sporter' contour barrels react better to full length or pressure point bedding than free floating according to what I read...But the articles had several methods for finding and creating the correct amount of pressure for the latter..

The stress on the action, relative to it's mounting in the stock, due to improper torque can also be a factor as Furhunter pointed out above...While the factory will sometimes list or give the torque specs, it may boil down to a trial and error procedure as well...If you have a Wheeler Fat Wrench for the inch pounds, you may want to play with it a little..While I have a standard torque wrench for inch pounds, the Wheeler is much easier to use with one hand...
 
I didn't see this covered above, so FWIW, if the new Winchesters are still made with 3 screws in the action, some folks have found success in tightening the front screw to spec, and the rear one tight, while playing with "just snug" to increasing tension on the middle screw. Applies to all 3 screw actions like the Rugers and Winchesters.
 
6724- If there ever was one, this may be it, though I can't help but feel that somewhere in there is an accurate rifle, if I can just figure out how to tease it out.

Mike B- New FN Winchesters only have two screws. At least that's one thing not to worry about.
 
I had issues with my old model 700. I bought a new sporter weight barrel from a gunsmith who had taken it off an action he was using in a build. I had him put it on my old 700 as a replacement. I know I should have bought a really expensive replacement but that gun just feels right and it has killed lots of coyotes. Anyway the gunsmith noticed the new barrel was touching the stock and free floated the barrel. I shot the gun and it was all over the place shooting a 3 or four inch group. I tried several loads and bullets with little improvement. Another member on this site suggested some forearm pressure. I used a piece of inner tube and my groups dropped to 1 inch. I left it like that for over a year and its still shooting well enough to kill several coyotes this winter.
 
Originally Posted By: FurhunterMake sure there's no stress being applied to the action via the magazine and bottom metal when your tightening the action screws. Stress on the action from the magazine or bottom metal will ruin accuracy. Your bottom metal should lay into the stock flat, at no point should it have to be sucked down with the action screws.

Hold the rifle butt on the table and your left hand covering the end of the stock and barrel. Loosen the forward or top action screw. If you feel the stock move in relation to the barrel while loosening that screw or the other one for that matter there's a bedding issue. It means your screws are using the action to pull the stock into place, causing undue stress on the action which isn't good. With the rear screw tight there should be no movement in the stock when loosening the front screw.

Whats your cleaning regimen? Is it copper fouled so bad it won't shoot?







Good advice.

You should be using a torque screw driver to tighten the action screws and keep track / record of the settings so you can always put the same torque on the screws every time.

You may just play with the torque on each action screw to see if it may be action screws not tightened properly / same.
 
I tried the above mentioned test with loosening and tightening the screws and do feel the barrel and stock moving in relation to one another. It feels like the gap between the barrel and forend opens up ever so slightly as the screw comes tight. So what's the next step in correcting this? I would assume I need to redo the bedding. What's the best method for not reintroducing this stress? When I bedded it last time I didn't use the action screws, only a piece of surgical tubing to hold the action in the stock, just for this reason. I did have some headless screws in the action holes to prevent the action from twisting. It was pretty stout tubing from a sling shot. Maybe I should find some weaker tubing. Would the tubing for turning the peep sight on a bow work?
 
A good bedding job must be done in two stages because the bedding compound shrinks and it shrinks more where it is thicker. Bed it once to get it close, then scrape just a couple thousandths off and bed it again.

Jack
 
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