.223: Why have 40 grain bullets fallen out of grace for coyotes??

Originally Posted By: carpsniperg2When I was younger I always bought the lighter bullets. I had way to many runners and switched to 50g+ and the amount of runners I have has gone down probably 70%. It is amazing what 10 grains more of weight has done for me. You sure have a lot of runners... Why? You must be doing it wrong, because you should only have a rare occassional runner. Where are the bullets impacting that is causing all those runners??
 
I can tell you why I shot 55 gr....

When I first started, I bought a gazillion 5.56 military surplus. because they were all 55 gr, I thought why not load everything else 55 gr so I don't have to change my scope. I can plink and hunt without changing anything.

I hunt with all kinds of different loads now, mostly the lighter 34gr and 40gr. Why? Seems to do less damage and is still lethal at the ranges we shoot.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: carpsniperg2When I was younger I always bought the lighter bullets. I had way to many runners and switched to 50g+ and the amount of runners I have has gone down probably 70%. It is amazing what 10 grains more of weight has done for me. You sure have a lot of runners... Why? You must be doing it wrong, because you should only have a rare occassional runner. Where are the bullets impacting that is causing all those runners??

+1. I think many people think they hit shoulders when the really hit the front leg. Any four legged critter will get far on three legs. And bone fragments do a lot of damage to the lungs behind them on shoulder shots. Agreed there is a difference between Noslers and Vmax but still, a 40 under 300 out of a .223 should break a shoulder of a coyote every time. Would be interesting to do some gel test with a coyote shoulder bone embedded beneath the surface. Who in CA is up to do some experimenting with high speed cameras?
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I thought I heard the 53 grain V-max was lead free, but don't know.

I have used 40 grain Fiocchi out of an 8 twist AR and really opened up a coyote. It was ugly. Bad enough I quit using them on Coyotes and just shoot prairie dogs with those. I still don't see why they shouldn't work just fine. It didn't appear to have hit the ribs, it just opened up like some of those photos you see with a 30 caliber. I have always used the plastic tip bullets but wonder if some of the earlier designs like the soft lead points and hollow points aren't just as reliable or more than the plastic tips. It seems like every 223 and 22-250 rifle I have shot likes 40 grainers. I will use 40's again (handloads) but not the blue tipped Fiocchi's on coyotes. In my mind they are just more explosive as they sure blow up prairie dogs too. That may sound stupid but I think bullets can vary from batches on how they react. I have had 55 NBTs do great and then had one that was a pass through?
 
I guess less is actually more, who whoulda thought. 40gr bullets out perform 50 and 55gr bullets terminally and ballistically.
 
The tiny 17 Remington with a 25gr bullet hammers coyotes too. There's something about a well placed fast n small bullet that just kills coyotes like lightning. But it's not a game for gut shooters to try because they'll get runners no matter what gun they use.
 
Well I just bought 5 boxes if Nosler Trophy Grade .223's with 40 grain NBT's and 250 bullets so we'll soon find out. Gonna be calling and filming after Christmas and hope I get lots if test subjects.

The Nosler BT's are a solid base tapered jacket design and will penetrate a bit better. The Nosler Varmageddon and Hornady Vmax are both cup designs with equal thickness base and side jacket (very thin) and while have the potential to be more accurate in theory, they will never hold together as well as a solid base tapered design like the NBT. The NBT is more expensive to make as well, but I don't think anyone will ever say they don't expand well enough. I think they are by far the best combo for tough dogs (regardless of bullet weight in my opinion). Provided you're not saving fur when using those ultra fast cartridges. My .243 AI with 55's at ~4200 would near cut coyotes in half. Super accurate and flat shooting though.
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I think you'll like the 40s. I shoot a 40gr Vmax at 3650 fps, and with a 150 yard zero I'm plus/minus 1/2 inch from 40 yards to 175 yards. That's pretty dang flat and it covers 95% of my hunting scenarios.
 
Originally Posted By: SmeshOrneryolfart357:

I haven't hunted much in CA so far. On the 27th, my 17 year old son is flying in from Winnipeg, Canada and on the 28th, we're driving to Globe, AZ for a little reunion hunt. He won the PM hunt in 2006 with most critters killed. He was 10 years old at the time and killed 3 coyotes and a javelina in the 3 day hunt. I know so little about California, that I need to get out here more to hunt yotes. I've scouted several areas outside the lead free zones, but then with the new law being phased in and so many people saying that individual wardens seem to be enforcing the law early, with no real consistency or anything firm in writing, I'd rather just hunt outside CA for now unless I'm with someone who really knows the zones. It's only a 7 hour drive from LA to Globe, so that's where we're going.
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Are you using lead free ammo?


There is no way they can enforce the new law yet. It has not been printed in the hunting regulations. It is supposed to not even take effect till 2019. Additionally any law signed this year does not take effect till FEB the following year. The current lead ban zone is clearly printed in the hunting regulations. There are absolutely vast areas loaded with coyote in CA. The lead ban zone is actually a great place to hunt because many people are pissed off and just go someplace else(not saying it doesn't piss me off too). Get the san bernardino county shooting map it shows what areas are shotgun only and are open to night hunting etc. Last but not least, unless you are hunting during deer season or really popular areas you could hunt for many many years and never even see a warden. Until its printed in the hunting regs (which comes out in june) don't worry about it.
Check out http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/39-Upland-Bird-Hunting

There is a predator section there. This forum is almost all people from CA. over there I am 527varmint. I'll probably be going predator hunting after xmas if you want to meet up. Going for Pheasant/Quail next week.

I use 55 gr bullets because when I was just starting out predator hunting I watched a byron south dvd. He recomended 60 gr vmax or SP and said they work better than 50 gr. I assume he hunts coyote for a living and knows what he is talking about. 60 gr are not common in factory ammo so I shoot the 55 gr sp. It has been accurate and puts the dogs down hard. I don't see why a 40 wouldn't work though. A 40 gr. from a 22mag droped the big dog in my avatar instantly. It is traveling almost twice as fast from a .223.

Welcome to CA, and good hunting.
 
I started my season off this yr using the .223 53 grn Superformance by Hornady. It is a Vmax and I have to say, it's awesome!! 9 dogs have tested it and they all had no complaints!!! Ha!! Hardly any fur damage and at 3450 FPS, it has the knockdown power!!
 
Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660
It is supposed to not even take effect till 2019.
That part is totally FALSE. Read the verbiage of the law. You pretty much have it backwards. It is to be implemented as soon as possible, and no later than 2019.
 
Triple. I was told and I think I even read that the individual counties could implement the law earlier if they wanted and it was up to the individual jurisdictions and the wardens who work in those areas. I'm pretty sure I also read that the printed regs are subject to change and it's up to the hunter to check for changes throughout the year.

It really sucks not knowing the laws. I'm trying to get to know them but everything is VERY different here than Canada. I know it's a unique state for the US as well, but so different from home. That's why I'd feel way more comfortable spending some time hunting with people who have the experience and understand the laws and the zones better. That San Bernadino map? Where can I get one and does it show the breakdowns clearly? Some I saw were very vague. My GF's parents live in Apple Valley and we go there often. I would love to be able to venture out from there on weekends, but where to go without getting into trouble? I'm learning, but it takes time. Eventually I'll just chance it and go I suppose. I like to be very certain of the laws where I hunt, but it seems tough to get 100% certainty on anything in this state.

I'm going to take you up on that offer for sure. Thanks.

Dirty Dog. I read originally it wouldn't even START until 2015, but that seems to be a moving target now.

As for lead free zone, what are you guys using? I really don't like Barnes and they no one seems to make over 35 grain bullets in lead free, and those are made of powdered copper or something. Yikes. Sure would be nice to shoot one bullet in all areas. I would if I found a lead free I liked. I guess there is always a shotgun for the lead free zone or a totally different gun just for that.
 
Originally Posted By: SmeshTriple. I guess there is always a shotgun for the lead free zone or a totally different gun just for that.

If you like lightweight bullets in .224 cal switching to lead free bullets may not be as bad now as it was 3 or 4 years ago.

Nosler makes a 40 Gr Ballistic Tip lead free Varmint bullet and Hornady makes a 35 gr NTX Lead Free Varmint bullet bullet. Nosler also makes a 6mm 55 gr Ballistic Tip Varmint bullet.

These lead free bullets are not real easy to find so if you wait until they announce when the whole state will go lead free you may not be able to find any lead free bullets.

If you shoot a .224 cal rifle and you like the 50 gr and bigger bullets, you better have a 1-9" twist or faster rifle or you will have to shoot the lightweight lead free bullets or make a barrel or rifle change.

Using a shotgun with lead free shot for predators will really be expensive if you want to shoot shells that work better than lead shot.
 
Hey Bob.

I like lighter, faster bullets in some situations but it depends on the construction of the bullet. The Nosler solid bases are great for that purpose, since they are tougher than the V-Max or even their own Varmageddon, but going to the light lead-free bullets are another story. They are so frangible I don't know how well they would work on coyotes. Nosler isn't listing the 40 lead-free on their site anymore so I wonder if 35 is the only choice?

Since you live close to the lead free zone, have you used any of the lead free Noslers? My AR is 1:9.

As for shot, I have killed plenty of critters with steel, but have only had to worry about steel "by law" for waterfowl. When hunting something like coyotes, I always used lead buckshot. I haven't explored the options for lead-free buckshot but
I'm guessing heavishot would be the way to go. Expensive but not like you would shoot a ton of rounds on a hunt. What do you use here in CA?
 
I think that the reason most shoot heavier bullets than 40 grain these days is that it is common for many 5.56 / 223 remington rifles to have faster twist rates these days vs the old days. My hunting partner shoots a 1 in 12 twist rate out of his bolt gun, but my AR is 1 in 7. I won't even spend the money to even try a 40 grain pill with a 1 in 7 twist and I consider the 55 grain pill the light bullet. 62 grain are my go to round for now but 69 and 77 grainers for long distance might end up being the choice.

So my opinion on the original ops question is that it is about twist rates in barrels more than anything.
 
I agree the trend is more MFGs offering faster twist barrels, but having a fast twist barrel doesn't mean you should use it to shoot heavier bullets all them time in every situation. I've been running fast twist Lilja barrels since the 90's and my 6mms can shoot 107 Sierras if I want them too, but I still shoot 55 Noslers most of the time for coyotes. People used to say you couldn't shoot them at over 4000 in a fast twist or they would blow up, and if they didn't they wouldn't be accurate, but my two 6mms both shoot sub half minute 5 shot groups with those bullets going super fast. They are like lasers. Wish I could bring them down here. I miss them.

For me, fast twist is about latitude - having a choice. I think running heavy bullets for coyotes just because you can is kind of short sighted, and ignores a lot of benefits that came with the past few decades of fantastic cartridge and bullet development, and that is hugely unfortunate IMO. This of course is regarding hunting, not target shooting.
 
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Originally Posted By: SmeshI agree the trend is more MFGs offering faster twist barrels, but having a fast twist barrel doesn't mean you should use it to shoot heavier bullets all them time in every situation. I've been running fast twist Lilja barrels since the 90's and my 6mms can shoot 107 Sierras if I want them too, but I still shoot 55 Noslers most of the time for coyotes. People used to say you couldn't shoot them at over 4000 in a fast twist or they would blow up, and if they didn't they wouldn't be accurate, but my two 6mms both shoot sub half minute 5 shot groups with those bullets going super fast. They are like lasers. Wish I could bring them down here. I miss them.

For me, fast twist is about latitude - having a choice. I think running heavy bullets for coyotes just because you can is kind of short sighted, and ignores a lot of benefits that came with the past few decades of fantastic cartridge and bullet development, and that is hugely unfortunate IMO. This of course is regarding hunting, not target shooting.

Please elaborate some more on your statement so I understand where you are coming from.

My choice of a 62 grain bonded bullet for my 1 in 7 twist gives me accuracy and performance (I think). This is the bullet that I am currently shooting until I make more time to get at the loading bench: Fusion MSR

The heavier stuff that I still might consider for yotes that I already own are 62 grain and 70 grain Barnes TSX copper solids. I do have some 55 Hornady sp s and some 60 grain Vmax to play with too. I haven't tried it yet, but I really didn't think a 40 grain pill would shoot with my 1 in 7 twist. Glad to hear that you are having good luck with lighter bullets with your faster twist rate in the 6mm.
 
I don't know what a v-max would shoot like in your 1-7, or the Nosler Varmageddons (as they are both made the same way) but I think the Nosler 40 Ballistic Tips would hold together fine, would likely shoot great with the right loads and still be very fast compared to heavier bullets. To each their own and that's the beauty of a faster twist, you have a choice.

For me, when hunting predators, a good bullet like the NBT, pushed as fast as possible will still getting tight groups, while give you the best PBR out to hunting ranges without having to mess with holdover, turrets or rangefinding reticles. You pint and shoot, and that bullet will kill very effectively.

If I owned an Indie car and a funny car, both would be pretty [beeep] cool, but I wouldn't take the Indie Car to a funny car race. The funny car would win every time. I'm not discounting your bullet choice. I'm sure it works well for you, but the. .223 is a small case, and I prefer speed. I may switch up to 50's. Who knows? It's been a long time since I hunted coyotes with a .222/.223.
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