bonesarelli
New member
Sako claims that hammer forged shoots more accurate for a longer duration and shoots accurately out of the box(no need for break in). Is this mostly just hype? Thanks
button rifled vs. hammer forged barrels
- Thread starter bonesarelli
- Start date
Martyn4802
New member
I don't have any first hand experience comparing the rifling methods. But, I have never seen any hammer forged barrels winning any benchrset matches where button rifled barrels rule.
I hope someone with some experience will post as I'd like to hear how they shoot too. I read a lot of good things about cut barrels, but only own one rifle that has a cut barrel. It shoots well for a hunting rifle.
Don
I hope someone with some experience will post as I'd like to hear how they shoot too. I read a lot of good things about cut barrels, but only own one rifle that has a cut barrel. It shoots well for a hunting rifle.
Don
Last edited:
Both can produce excellent barrels, the big difference comes with the care the barrel is manufactured with. Both require the drilled blank to be carefully honed before rifling is formed. With hammer forge the condition of the mandril is all important. If it is worn or dirty the imperfections will be transfered to the rifling when the hammer process takes place. Part of the idea of lasting longe comes from the compression of the bore surface, which is claimed to give a harder surface. This has some merit, as I have talked to a Gunsmith that re-bores and re-rifles existing barrels to a larger caliber and he claimed that Sako barrels were very hard to work.
The button rifled barrels also have to have a good honed finish of the internal bore before the broach is pulled through. Remington is responsible for developing this process, and still uses it on their 40X rifles. It is one of the factors that gave the Mod. 700 it's reputation for shooting right out of the box. Of course that is a reputation that the old Sako's also shared.
It comes down to the care that is taken with the bore drilling, and honing before the rifling is started.
As far as barrel brakin is conserned read the following comment by Gale McMillan (barrel maker)posted on another board.
Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in
That's good enough for me if McMillan said it.
MaBell
The button rifled barrels also have to have a good honed finish of the internal bore before the broach is pulled through. Remington is responsible for developing this process, and still uses it on their 40X rifles. It is one of the factors that gave the Mod. 700 it's reputation for shooting right out of the box. Of course that is a reputation that the old Sako's also shared.
It comes down to the care that is taken with the bore drilling, and honing before the rifling is started.
As far as barrel brakin is conserned read the following comment by Gale McMillan (barrel maker)posted on another board.
Gale McMillan
Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in
That's good enough for me if McMillan said it.
MaBell
Mike,
You are correct, the carbide "button", is pulled through and swages the rifling into the bore. This is a forming process not a cutting process as broaching would imply. The process is usually very consistant, with a very fine bore finish, and produces a better than average accuracy, with less cost than cut rifling.
The hammer forged barrel cost a lot more for up front investment in machinery to do the process. Hammer forging is also known as the "Appel process" or cold forming.
Button rifling starts with a bore that is under sized and is swaged by the button, and hammer forge starts with a bore that is over sized, and is rotary hammered around a mandril, "plastisizing" the steel and forming to the reversed rifle image on the mandril. The advantage of this is molecular rearrangement that gives a harder surface. Again if the mandril is used to long or the surface is damaged, no matter how little, this is imparted to the rifling in the finshed bore.
MaBell
You are correct, the carbide "button", is pulled through and swages the rifling into the bore. This is a forming process not a cutting process as broaching would imply. The process is usually very consistant, with a very fine bore finish, and produces a better than average accuracy, with less cost than cut rifling.
The hammer forged barrel cost a lot more for up front investment in machinery to do the process. Hammer forging is also known as the "Appel process" or cold forming.
Button rifling starts with a bore that is under sized and is swaged by the button, and hammer forge starts with a bore that is over sized, and is rotary hammered around a mandril, "plastisizing" the steel and forming to the reversed rifle image on the mandril. The advantage of this is molecular rearrangement that gives a harder surface. Again if the mandril is used to long or the surface is damaged, no matter how little, this is imparted to the rifling in the finshed bore.
MaBell
Last edited:
dtech
New member
I was wondering, I have spent a fair amount of time at the Olympic Arms barrel shop and when you were talking about "buttons" and "broaches" in the same barrel it made me wonder.
I was told and was under the understanding that when you get fluctuations in hardness of the barrel material the buttoning process yields a barrel with tight spots. I have used somewhere in the area of 700 broach cut barrel and maybe 100 buttoned barrels from several manufacturers and I have found the broached barrels to me much more consistent.
I was told and was under the understanding that when you get fluctuations in hardness of the barrel material the buttoning process yields a barrel with tight spots. I have used somewhere in the area of 700 broach cut barrel and maybe 100 buttoned barrels from several manufacturers and I have found the broached barrels to me much more consistent.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
The key to making a top quality button rifled barrel is the quality of the blank. Actually that is the key no matter how you rifle it. Even single point cut and broach cut barrels need uniform steel to make a top quality barrel. Apparently the hammer forming process is slightly more tolerant. It takes a multi-million dollar machine to make them but it can produce a good barrel with a cheaper blank. It does not produce match winning barrels. Every match I ever heard of was won by a button or single point cut barrel.
I am hearing good stuff about the broach cut barrels and they are cheaper, maybe they will win soon?
There was a good article on the hammer forging of barrels just recently. Maybe in last months "The American Rifleman."
Jack
I am hearing good stuff about the broach cut barrels and they are cheaper, maybe they will win soon?
There was a good article on the hammer forging of barrels just recently. Maybe in last months "The American Rifleman."
Jack
Iron Worker
New member
Hey Mabell Hey now you qouated a Barrel make.That I am not. My short story. I have a Win Mod 70 in 270WSM at first it shot 1 1/4 at best,also a patch soaked in Sweet 7.62 came out deep blue after just a couple of shots.Thought of saleing it.Instead sent it off to be accurized, Trigger,glass Bedded Muzzel brake..Groups were reduced to 1MOA. Still just ok.I fired oh a couple hundread rnds thru it,variouis bullet wieghts and styles. Then one day I was shooting well under 1/2MOA did this several times in fact even shot 1/2' 5 shot groups at 200YDS shooting Sierra 135 gr HPBT.So you mean to tell me there is no such thing as barrel break in?Plus cleanning BBL is a snap. So whats up with that?????
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Barrels frequently do improve with shooting. But they don't improve any more by "break-in procedures." Cleaning it first and then shooting it normally will improve it as much as a dedicated clean and shoot procedure.
A new barrel I was using on a lot of ground squirrels last summer is definitely more accurate and cleans easier after 2000 rounds. I never did any "break-in" and frequently went over 100 rounds between cleanings.
Jack
A new barrel I was using on a lot of ground squirrels last summer is definitely more accurate and cleans easier after 2000 rounds. I never did any "break-in" and frequently went over 100 rounds between cleanings.
Jack
Eddie Harren
New member
In reference to the term "tight spots", this is the reason that all makers of top quality Match Grade barrels hand lap their products and test with an air gauge to insure uniform bore diameter. This is the one process in making a good barrel that no machine can duplicate. The person lapping the barrel must "feel" for the tight spots.
trailhound
New member
I purchased a Sako 22-250 3 years ago and was mad at the groups it shot. 3 inch groups at 100 yards with lots of different ammo. It took about 60 rounds through this gun before it turned into a shooter. Did not really break in as some discribe. Just shot it 20-30 rounds and cleaned it then just started to shoot it alot. Groups just started to shrink. Now it shoots less than 1/2 inch at 100 yards.
NM Leon
New member
Hammer forging is a high volume, cheap (after buying the machine) method of manufacture. Cost per finished barrel to the factory is about $10. It's what virtually all factory guns come with. Sometimes they are accurate and sometimes not depending on your definition of accuracy.
I can't think of any rifle competition that has been won with a hammer forged barrel.
The real question should be button rifling (pulled or pushed) vs. cut rifling (single or broach). That's the debate that reigns among both comp shooters and custom barrel makers.
This is from Lilja:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm
This one from Extreme accuracy:
http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com/Rifle_Barrel.htm
This was an article in Precision Shooting Magazine, a very good mag if you reload or are just interested in accurate shooting:
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm
Hope this helps,
Good shooting
I can't think of any rifle competition that has been won with a hammer forged barrel.
The real question should be button rifling (pulled or pushed) vs. cut rifling (single or broach). That's the debate that reigns among both comp shooters and custom barrel makers.
This is from Lilja:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm
This one from Extreme accuracy:
http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com/Rifle_Barrel.htm
This was an article in Precision Shooting Magazine, a very good mag if you reload or are just interested in accurate shooting:
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm
Hope this helps,
Good shooting
I just bought a Tika 223 varmiter and whatever they use it seems to be very good.This thing shot 1/2 moa groups rite out of the box with factory ammo.I mounted a new scope on it, never bore sighted it and it was 1/2 low and 1/2 in to right.Triger pull is not bad at all either .I think it is ugly as sin but it sure shoots good.
Dtech,
Your correct,,, most of them have gone to the hammer forged. It's a shame, because they try to squeeze every barrel they can out of the mandrils they use.
As far as Ruger anything was an improvement over some of their old barrels. You never knew what you were going to get when you bought one.
Remington still has the button rifled on their 40X, and Weatherby still puts the Krieger "Criterion", which is button-rifled, on their Mark V's.
It's a "Bean Counter" thing.
MaBell
Your correct,,, most of them have gone to the hammer forged. It's a shame, because they try to squeeze every barrel they can out of the mandrils they use.
As far as Ruger anything was an improvement over some of their old barrels. You never knew what you were going to get when you bought one.
Remington still has the button rifled on their 40X, and Weatherby still puts the Krieger "Criterion", which is button-rifled, on their Mark V's.
It's a "Bean Counter" thing.
MaBell