military binoculars with range finder

S

So. Dak.

New member
I have a pair of M19 binoculars with a range finder of some type in the left eye. It's plus shaped reticle with increments from left to right that are numbered up to 5. The upper "arm" of the retucle has increments that go up to 7 and the lower "arm" has 3 increments with no numbers.

I have never been able to figure out how to use it. I've had them since 1993.

Does anyone know how to use the range finder?!

thanks
 
The hash marks on the reticle are 5 mils wide (2.5 mils on either side of the stadia) and 10 mils apart with a 5 mil hash in between. About the only thing you can range with them would be a t-90 tank.
 
You can either 1) measure distance if you have a known size or 2) measure size if you have a known distance.

1) you have building in the distance, you don't know how far away it is but you use a standard 10 feet/floor for height. You put the vertical stadia on the building and read the number that if fits into. Say the three story building is from 0-2 on the vertical scale, the formula you would use is: Distance = effective size (30 feet) divided by size read (2) then multiply that by 100. That would mean that the building is about 1500 feet or 500 yards away. You can use whatever unit of distance you want and just sub it in (meters, feet, yards)

2) There is an Elk across a canyon that looks to be quite large. You range the Elk at 300 yards (900 feet) and it reads .5 across the width of the rack on the horizontal stadia. The formula you would use is: Effective size = distance (900) x size read (.5) = 450 and divide that by 100. That would mean that the beam on the Elk would be 4.5 feet wide!
 
Why Jeff I feel slighted. Perhaps you thought my post was some sophmoric attempt at humor and therefore was discounted intirely. Let me clarify my response if I may.

The reason I said that the only thing that you might be able to range with that type of system is the same reason why Mike used a three story house in his example. Small targets at distance are very difficult to range with a mil dot scope (read 1 mil between dots) but your request is for a 10 mil gradation.

Let me give you an example if I may. I'll use a 17" target size for simplicity. A coyote is about that tall.

At 100 yards 1 mil will cover 3.44". So our coyote, being 17" tall will cover 5 mils in your scope (binoculars). That's half the distance from your horizontal stadia to the number 1. Double that distance to 200 yards and that coyote will only cover 2.5 mils (that's half the hash mark from the stadia). Now lets get to the point where you really need to know the range. 300 yards starts to get a little hairy because at 300 our little coyote is now only covering 1 and 2/3 mils. The problem is that there is no reference marks on the M19 to come up with 1 and 2/3 mils.

And here's where it really gets bad.

The difference between our coyote standing at 300 yards and 400 yards is a whopping 1/2 mil. So if I'm off by 1/4 mil in my range estimation one way or the other at 400 yards, my shot will be off by about 15"-20" give or take.

So you see I was not being fesecious, I was being serious when I used the T-90 as a target size for ranging with the M19's.

Sorry to go on so. The wife's at school and I'm pretty bored.
 
You know, I go to meet this guy at the PM Hunt. I thought he was a jokester and one of those guys that can "southern" engineer about anything. The more I get to know ole Tony, the more awestruck I am. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif

You get to meet all types of people through life. Tony, you are one of the great ones. A true Renaissance man. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
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Why Jeff I feel slighted. Perhaps you thought my post was some sophmoric attempt at humor and therefore was discounted intirely. Let me clarify my response if I may.

The reason I said that the only thing that you might be able to range with that type of system is the same reason why Mike used a three story house in his example. Small targets at distance are very difficult to range with a mil dot scope (read 1 mil between dots) but your request is for a 10 mil gradation.

Let me give you an example if I may. I'll use a 17" target size for simplicity. A coyote is about that tall.

At 100 yards 1 mil will cover 3.44". So our coyote, being 17" tall will cover 5 mils in your scope (binoculars). That's half the distance from your horizontal stadia to the number 1. Double that distance to 200 yards and that coyote will only cover 2.5 mils (that's half the hash mark from the stadia). Now lets get to the point where you really need to know the range. 300 yards starts to get a little hairy because at 300 our little coyote is now only covering 1 and 2/3 mils. The problem is that there is no reference marks on the M19 to come up with 1 and 2/3 mils.

And here's where it really gets bad.

The difference between our coyote standing at 300 yards and 400 yards is a whopping 1/2 mil. So if I'm off by 1/4 mil in my range estimation one way or the other at 400 yards, my shot will be off by about 15"-20" give or take.

So you see I was not being fesecious, I was being serious when I used the T-90 as a target size for ranging with the M19's.

Sorry to go on so. The wife's at school and I'm pretty bored.



Sheez, I just wanted to know how to use it. Don't fret. Thanks for the explaination.
 
Got a good friend that used to apply the reticle ranging systems afield for coyotes, by recalibrating the Leupold Range Estimating System for an 11" coyote back to brisket, and has experienced quite a bit more success relative to guessing. I've worked some with a plex reticle calibrated for doe antelope (14"), and some inanimate objects of known size, and have been surprised at how effective the system is to about 400 or so.

In fact had another friend that adapted the plex reticle system to use it as a max. point blank range rangefinder, and won the Steel Safari in New Mexico a couple times by applying "the system".
 
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I have a pair of the M-22 binoculars with the range-finding stadia. After using them for a while they do become quite useful. To use the formula would be quite cumbersome in the field but when you get accustom to using them as a comparator, they are quick and handy.
 
Couple years ago i started messing around with the mil-ranging formula, and realized that it was just a simple relationship between a reticle subtension and downrange measurement, so i just substituted any stadia-stadia reticle subtension measurement into the formula, and it worked just fine. Now i use it for all my reticles, and especially like it for the simple plex. U know i think the reason they call it the mil-raging formula is just because the military came up with it while researching the mil-ranging system. Tonlocus is right about it's shortcomings tho. It's definitely not a laser. Hard to get animals to be the same size, and/or stay still. They always seem to move just when everything's lined up just right.

U know Dakota-- i'd play around with your ranging binocs some-- if nothing else it ought to impress your buddies. It's actually pretty fascinating when u have time to apply it.
 
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SScoyote,

The "mil" in a mil-dot system refers to milliradians (1/1000 of a radian) not military (though they use it).

Remember back to geometry class, where r=radius (or radian) and if you use 3.14 for PI,then 2PIr=circumferance. It's just a different system of measuring instead of the degree/minute/second system we shooters normally use (MOA) because 1 Minute Of Angle happens to equal 1" at 100yd (actually 1.047" but who's counting).

By the way, 1 "mil" = 3.6" at 100 yds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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SScoyote,

The "mil" in a mil-dot system refers to milliradians (1/1000 of a radian) not military (though they use it).

Remember back to geometry class, where r=radius (or radian) and if you use 3.14 for PI,then 2PIr=circumferance. It's just a different system of measuring instead of the degree/minute/second system we shooters normally use (MOA) because 1 Minute Of Angle happens to equal 1" at 100yd (actually 1.047" but who's counting).

By the way, 1 "mil" = 3.6" at 100 yds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif



You smart people have no place on this board! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Yeah that's exactly right. I probably didn't explain myself right. The milrelation formula, based on the milradian system is itself just a simple formula that defines the relationship between any angular reticle measuring system, and some other measurement downrange , no matter what part of a circle the angle's origin is. It doesn't need to be a milradian measurement. it can be the subtension measurement of the simple plex, or a ballistic reticle subtension (Ball. `Plex, Varmint HUnter, etc.)-- actually any stadia-stadia measurement, and it's defined by the following equation, of which is unitless--

size of target x 100 (yds.)/reticle subtension/area target subtends in tenths of the total subtension== range to target (in yards with this equation).

Example for a plex subtension of say 5 MOA, assuming a target measurement of 12" (coyote maybe),

12 x 100/ 5/ coyote "gaps" at exactly 1 subtension unit==
240 yds.
.9 unit = 265
.8= 300
.7= 340
etc.

THis stuff is fascinating to play with. What'd be interesting is to find the history of the milradian system-- i mean why did they pick that particular angular measurement, that defines that certain part of a circle? Who was the 1st to use it?, etc.

Hey Dakota-- bet u didn't expect to get this kind of mileage out of your question ehh??-- sorry we sort of hijacked it.
 
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This is from memory and we know what happens when you get old so the it may not be completely accurate.

The milliradian system is based on spherical geometry developed (at least described in writing) by Euclid in 300-400 B.C. His salary was payed by the Greek royalty whose basic interest was astronomy/astrology.

It's used by shooters (and tankers/artillarymen/etc.) in it's simplified 2 dimensional form (plane geometry) because it provides an easy way to estimate range if you know the size of the target or target size if you know the range.

The 360deg/circle, 60min/deg, 60second/min system was originated by the English in the 1500s for ocean (out of sight of land) navigation. They developed the first clock accurate enough for longitudinal navigation and so got to be the worlds best seafarers. For a long time (untill their "secrets" were stolen) English pilots were the navigators on everyones ocean going ships. The English were predominant for so long that their system became what everyone used by default.

I believe the reason the compass (circle) was divided into 360 units (degrees) instead of a much more rational 100 or 1000 had to do with the polital (and actual) fighting between Henry the VIII, Pope Clement VII and Charles V of France. Henry (also called "The Navigator") developed his own system partly in defiance of the Pope and partly in order that no one else could easily figure it out!

The reason we shooters have hijacked a part of the system, MOA, is because of the lucky happenstance that 1 MOA equals almost exactly 1" at 100 yds and of course follows linearly (2' @ 200yd, 3" @ 300 etc.).

The system only works with the English system of measurement by design (1MOA does NOT equal 100 mm @ 100m).

The "milliradian" system will work no matter what the unit of measure is.

Sorry Dakota, I'm a trainer by profession and can't seem to keep myself from either teaching or learning. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

I've always believed that it wasn't curiosity that killed the cat, it was ignorance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Pretty good NM-- we've been learned. It is pretty fascinating info-- thks. U know the part about Henry complcating the system so no one else could figure it out definitely worked-- it certainly took me a long time to figure out the mil system. What is your background in this?-- U certainly know a lot about it.
 
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Pretty good NM-- we've been learned. It is pretty fascinating info-- thks. U know the part about Henry complcating the system so no one else could figure it out definitely worked-- it certainly took me a long time to figure out the mil system. What is your background in this?-- U certainly know a lot about it.



Mostly it's just been a lifetime of insatiable curiosity and an addiction to reading/learning.

I've enjoyed hunting and shooting since I was a kid and have hunted Kodiaks for livestock predation control, commercial Hair Seal (also around Kodiak), Wolves, Moose, Elk, Deer, and all sorts of small game/varmints in N. America, Sumatran Tiger in Indonesia (a maneater and "we" got him but not me), but my passion (insanity?) for a number of years now has been extreme accuracy shooting and ballists. I was blessed with very good eyesight and the ability of "stillness".

I guess I'm lucky that I don't have a wife or minor children or I might find myself commited to an institution, LOL. I can't wait to "infect" my grandson, I have already bought him a couple of guns. Do you think almost 3yrs old is too young to start him shooting?

I left home at 16 and have lived and worked all over the world, from Pruhoe Bay AK, to S.E.Asia, Europe, Africa (never hunted there though) as a commercial fisherman (king crab and halibut), ranch hand/cowboy (never could get the hang of roping), explosives engineer, commercial (deep sea) bell/saturation diver/supervisor, oilfield roughnek, A&P (airplane) mechanic, building contractor/designer, welder/machinist, and truck driver to name a few.

I was partner on a couple of trimarans and learned celestial navigation as a blue water (ocean) sailor long before GPS systems were available to civilians, when you had to do the math and use a sextant to navigate.

I have enough math/engineering college credits for a BS and a good ways towards an MS if I ever got interested enough to go back and take the prerequisite and specialized courses, but I don't like English or foreign language classes (though I learned German and Thai by living there and speaking them) and I can't stand liberals, especially academics. I'm 52yrs old so a higher degree wouldn't help me much in practical terms anyway. Won't stop me from taking the classes and learning the things I'm interested in though.

That's me in a (large) nutshell /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Now if I could just find a job that payed 6 figures, let me stay at home, and only required a few hours a week, I'd be in tall cotton. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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