Wallbass45
New member
Besides 12 ga for home defense I came across a good used,almost never shot M1 Carbine. And was asking for your opinions on it for a home defense/SHTF gun???? Thanks Jeff
M1 Carbine for home defense
- Thread starter Wallbass45
- Start date
Huntinjim
New member
As a home defense gun? I'd say you know your surroundings and level of comfort with the weapon better than anyone so that's a matter of personal taste. Will anybody else need to use it and what is their comfort level with it? For a SHTF gun? I like it if you have the ammo for it. Nice all around gun that you can depend on. I killed my first deer with a borrowed M1. May not be some people's first choice and if money were no object it probably wouldn't be mine but money is an object. You could certainly do a lot worse.
mj36639
New member
It really depends on who manufactured the carbine. Is it an actual USGI issue M-1 made by Inland, Winchester, Underwood etc or a later commercial copy such as the Universal Carbine?
If it's a Universal or Auto- Ordnance Carbine I wouldn't trust it to help defend my home. If it's USGI carbine get a modern defensive load and it should perform quite well. Here is a link with some excellent info:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956
If it's a Universal or Auto- Ordnance Carbine I wouldn't trust it to help defend my home. If it's USGI carbine get a modern defensive load and it should perform quite well. Here is a link with some excellent info:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956
Wallbass45
New member
It is a Auto- Ordnance Carbine for $400 from here and some searching I did today I think I will Pass on this one.
However I am Single and the Kids are gone so not worried there!!
Thanks Guys!!
However I am Single and the Kids are gone so not worried there!!
Thanks Guys!!
Original USGI carbine would be great for shtf/homeland defense. It is amazing how the .30 carbine round has been disparaged so much over the years as good for nothing. Now that it is back in a new incarnation as the .300 Blackout it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and good for everything that walks, talks, or crawls! Go figure.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: TnTnTnOriginal USGI carbine would be great for shtf/homeland defense. It is amazing how the .30 carbine round has been disparaged so much over the years as good for nothing. Now that it is back in a new incarnation as the .300 Blackout it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and good for everything that walks, talks, or crawls! Go figure.
The 300 Blackout is not comparable to nor is it based on the 30 Caliber carbine cartridge. The 30 Carbine is basically a high velocity pistol cartridge that can only fire round nosed bullets with a low ballistic co-efficient.
The 300 Blackout is a true intermediate assault rifle cartridge with ballistics superior to the Soviet 7.62x39 and German 7.92x33 Kurz. It is also highly effective in the suppressed role firing 220 grain bullets. Try that with a 30 Carbine and you will end up with a 5 1/2 lb grenade. Not the same at all.
The 300 Blackout is not comparable to nor is it based on the 30 Caliber carbine cartridge. The 30 Carbine is basically a high velocity pistol cartridge that can only fire round nosed bullets with a low ballistic co-efficient.
The 300 Blackout is a true intermediate assault rifle cartridge with ballistics superior to the Soviet 7.62x39 and German 7.92x33 Kurz. It is also highly effective in the suppressed role firing 220 grain bullets. Try that with a 30 Carbine and you will end up with a 5 1/2 lb grenade. Not the same at all.
Rbreb13
New member
I have a M1 carbine and would use it if the need arises. But for my home defense carbine I have a Ruger PC9GR. It's 9mm carbine that uses the same magazines as the P-85 I keep on the nightstand. Only 1 type of magazine for 2 different firearms will be great in a stressful situation, hopefully.
The K.I.S.S principal!
The K.I.S.S principal!
Looking at the ballistics on the .30 carbine vs the .300 blackout on the Hodgdon Reloading Web Site I don't see much difference. Now the Bo with speciality bullets won't fit in a carbine platform- I will grant you that. The AR allows longer oal to play with different bullets basically. Otherwise they have basically the same horsepower.
justin10mm
New member
From the Hornady web sight:
.30 carbine 110gr. - 2000 fps
.300 Whisper/Blk 110gr - 2375 fps
7.62x39 123gr. - 2360 fps
The .300 whisper is a small step up over the carbine but it is NOT more powerful than the soviet round.
Technically the .300blk is based on a handgun round, the .221 FB which was originally developed as a specialty handgun cartridge.
.30 carbine 110gr. - 2000 fps
.300 Whisper/Blk 110gr - 2375 fps
7.62x39 123gr. - 2360 fps
The .300 whisper is a small step up over the carbine but it is NOT more powerful than the soviet round.
Technically the .300blk is based on a handgun round, the .221 FB which was originally developed as a specialty handgun cartridge.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: TnTnTnLooking at the ballistics on the .30 carbine vs the .300 blackout on the Hodgdon Reloading Web Site I don't see much difference. Now the Bo with speciality bullets won't fit in a carbine platform- I will grant you that. The AR allows longer oal to play with different bullets basically. Otherwise they have basically the same horsepower.
Again the ballistics between the 300 Blackout and 30 carbine are not even comparable. The 300 Blackout is closer to a light 30/30 than a 30 carbine.
The 300 Blackout can achieve supersonic velocities with bullets from 110 grains all the way up to 180 grains through it's shorter 16 inch barrel. Withe the 30 carbine you are stuck at 2000 FPS with a 110 grain round nosed bullet.
Here are ballistic tables comparing the two cartridges both using 110 grain bullets. The muzzle velocity I used for the 110 grain 300 Blackout is fairly conservative as I push a 130 grain Hornady SP to 2300 FPS in my 16 inch carbine with no pressure issues.
Some high points are:
Muzzle energy: 30 Carbine 982 Ft Lbs. 300 Blk 1436 Ft Lbs.
Drop at 300 yds: 30 Carbine 48 inches. 300 Blk 22 inches.(Less than half the drop of the 30 Carbine!)
30 Carbine goes subsonic at 300 yards,
300 Blackout is Supersonic out to 600 yards.
As you can see the 300 Blackout has significant advantages in platform, versatility, and exterior as well as terminal ballistics.
I had an opinion very similar to yours until I did the research, built the upper, and started working up loads. The two cartridges are apples and oranges plain and simple.
Again the ballistics between the 300 Blackout and 30 carbine are not even comparable. The 300 Blackout is closer to a light 30/30 than a 30 carbine.
The 300 Blackout can achieve supersonic velocities with bullets from 110 grains all the way up to 180 grains through it's shorter 16 inch barrel. Withe the 30 carbine you are stuck at 2000 FPS with a 110 grain round nosed bullet.
Here are ballistic tables comparing the two cartridges both using 110 grain bullets. The muzzle velocity I used for the 110 grain 300 Blackout is fairly conservative as I push a 130 grain Hornady SP to 2300 FPS in my 16 inch carbine with no pressure issues.
Some high points are:
Muzzle energy: 30 Carbine 982 Ft Lbs. 300 Blk 1436 Ft Lbs.
Drop at 300 yds: 30 Carbine 48 inches. 300 Blk 22 inches.(Less than half the drop of the 30 Carbine!)
30 Carbine goes subsonic at 300 yards,
300 Blackout is Supersonic out to 600 yards.
As you can see the 300 Blackout has significant advantages in platform, versatility, and exterior as well as terminal ballistics.
I had an opinion very similar to yours until I did the research, built the upper, and started working up loads. The two cartridges are apples and oranges plain and simple.
Last edited:
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: justin10mmFrom the Hornady web sight:
.30 carbine 110gr. - 2000 fps
.300 Whisper/Blk 110gr - 2375 fps
7.62x39 123gr. - 2360 fps
The .300 whisper is a small step up over the carbine but it is NOT more powerful than the soviet round.
Technically the .300blk is based on a handgun round, the .221 FB which was originally developed as a specialty handgun cartridge.
That's not really correct. The 7.62x39 M43 cartridge is plagued by limited bullet selection and bullets with low ballistic coefficients. The 300 Blackout does not suffer from that problem. The 7.62x39 has a slightly higher muzzle velocity but the 300 Blackout surpasses it at roughly 70 yards due to it's higher B.C. bullets.
.30 carbine 110gr. - 2000 fps
.300 Whisper/Blk 110gr - 2375 fps
7.62x39 123gr. - 2360 fps
The .300 whisper is a small step up over the carbine but it is NOT more powerful than the soviet round.
Technically the .300blk is based on a handgun round, the .221 FB which was originally developed as a specialty handgun cartridge.
That's not really correct. The 7.62x39 M43 cartridge is plagued by limited bullet selection and bullets with low ballistic coefficients. The 300 Blackout does not suffer from that problem. The 7.62x39 has a slightly higher muzzle velocity but the 300 Blackout surpasses it at roughly 70 yards due to it's higher B.C. bullets.
Thanks for taking the time to post the comparative data. Using a 110g jacketed bullet Hodgdon shows 2000-2100fps max for the .30 carbine and 2100-2300fps max with a 110g jacketed bullet for the .300 bo. So indeed the bo has a 200fps advantage at the muzzle with a 110g bullet. I understand that pointed bullets keep their energy to longer range.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: TnTnTnThanks for taking the time to post the comparative data. Using a 110g jacketed bullet Hodgdon shows 2000-2100fps max for the .30 carbine and 2100-2300fps max with a 110g jacketed bullet for the .300 bo. So indeed the bo has a 200fps advantage at the muzzle with a 110g bullet. I understand that pointed bullets keep their energy to longer range.
The load data you are reading is just not accurate. I am giving you real world data. Your typical factory defensive load for the 110 grain 30 caliber carbine produces 2000 FPS or less from a longer 18 inch barrel. The Barnes 110 grain Vor-TX produces over 2400 FPS with a barrel that is two inches shorter. That's not a 200 feet per second difference that's 400. Many 300 Blackout shooters are pushing that Barnes 110 grain bullet to 2500 FPS so anyway you look at it the 300 Blk will deliver at least 20% more velocity.
If you want to look at it another way, I shoot 150 grain bullets with the 300 BLK all day long at the same velocity the 30 Carbine delivers with a 110 grain bullet.
The load data you are reading is just not accurate. I am giving you real world data. Your typical factory defensive load for the 110 grain 30 caliber carbine produces 2000 FPS or less from a longer 18 inch barrel. The Barnes 110 grain Vor-TX produces over 2400 FPS with a barrel that is two inches shorter. That's not a 200 feet per second difference that's 400. Many 300 Blackout shooters are pushing that Barnes 110 grain bullet to 2500 FPS so anyway you look at it the 300 Blk will deliver at least 20% more velocity.
If you want to look at it another way, I shoot 150 grain bullets with the 300 BLK all day long at the same velocity the 30 Carbine delivers with a 110 grain bullet.
coleridge
New member
Wow, I didn't know you needed to look a ballistics at 300 Yards to decide on a home defense cartrige (you must have a REALLY big house)!!!!
In any typical "home defense" situations your target will be inside 25 yards (usually MUCH closer). At that range the 30 carbine is COMPARABLE to the 300BLK. Yes the BLK can be loaded hotter than listed but so can the carbine. Either way your looking at 200-300fps difference (AT MOST) speeds with 110gr bullets (pretty negligable at 25 yards). However, if your worried about speed just run the 223Rem in the same platform as the blkout.
Yes the BLKout is more versitle (than the carbine) with a longer OAL, much tighter twist, & slightly more case capacity. To sumerize the advatages you can load it with high BC bullets , WOW.
THe BLK is cool but it's not some things people try to make them. (I mean anyway you look at it the "worthless 30/30" is better) When loaded hot & light, it lacks the trajectory you can get with rounds in same platform (223, 6x45,6.8, etc). When loaded subsonic with the heavies it pretty much runs the energy of a 45acp (you can get that in MUCH smaller package ie 1911) for home defense.
I'm not bashing the 300 Blackout (I have one & waiting a TB 30-P1 for it) it's just a niche cartridge. For home defense the carbine would be fine (as long as it's not a "jammer"). A 300 BLK would be fine, a 45acp, 9mm, 40, 223, 6x45, 30/30, & soo on would be fine if over penetration isn't a problem. However, I feel a shotgun is far & away a better home defense weapon; even though it's ineffective at 300 yards
In any typical "home defense" situations your target will be inside 25 yards (usually MUCH closer). At that range the 30 carbine is COMPARABLE to the 300BLK. Yes the BLK can be loaded hotter than listed but so can the carbine. Either way your looking at 200-300fps difference (AT MOST) speeds with 110gr bullets (pretty negligable at 25 yards). However, if your worried about speed just run the 223Rem in the same platform as the blkout.
Yes the BLKout is more versitle (than the carbine) with a longer OAL, much tighter twist, & slightly more case capacity. To sumerize the advatages you can load it with high BC bullets , WOW.
THe BLK is cool but it's not some things people try to make them. (I mean anyway you look at it the "worthless 30/30" is better) When loaded hot & light, it lacks the trajectory you can get with rounds in same platform (223, 6x45,6.8, etc). When loaded subsonic with the heavies it pretty much runs the energy of a 45acp (you can get that in MUCH smaller package ie 1911) for home defense.
I'm not bashing the 300 Blackout (I have one & waiting a TB 30-P1 for it) it's just a niche cartridge. For home defense the carbine would be fine (as long as it's not a "jammer"). A 300 BLK would be fine, a 45acp, 9mm, 40, 223, 6x45, 30/30, & soo on would be fine if over penetration isn't a problem. However, I feel a shotgun is far & away a better home defense weapon; even though it's ineffective at 300 yards
justin10mm
New member
I know head shots aren't a good demonstration of "knock down power" but here it goes anyway.
Up close the Carbine has all the power you need for home/personal defense IMHO.
Up close the Carbine has all the power you need for home/personal defense IMHO.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: coleridgeWow, I didn't know you needed to look a ballistics at 300 Yards to decide on a home defense cartrige (you must have a REALLY big house)!!!!
In any typical "home defense" situations your target will be inside 25 yards (usually MUCH closer). At that range the 30 carbine is COMPARABLE to the 300BLK. Yes the BLK can be loaded hotter than listed but so can the carbine. Either way your looking at 200-300fps difference (AT MOST) speeds with 110gr bullets (pretty negligable at 25 yards). However, if your worried about speed just run the 223Rem in the same platform as the blkout.
Yes the BLKout is more versitle (than the carbine) with a longer OAL, much tighter twist, & slightly more case capacity. To sumerize the advatages you can load it with high BC bullets , WOW.
THe BLK is cool but it's not some things people try to make them. (I mean anyway you look at it the "worthless 30/30" is better) When loaded hot & light, it lacks the trajectory you can get with rounds in same platform (223, 6x45,6.8, etc). When loaded subsonic with the heavies it pretty much runs the energy of a 45acp (you can get that in MUCH smaller package ie 1911) for home defense.
I'm not bashing the 300 Blackout (I have one & waiting a TB 30-P1 for it) it's just a niche cartridge. For home defense the carbine would be fine (as long as it's not a "jammer"). A 300 BLK would be fine, a 45acp, 9mm, 40, 223, 6x45, 30/30, & soo on would be fine if over penetration isn't a problem. However, I feel a shotgun is far & away a better home defense weapon; even though it's ineffective at 300 yards
You must not have read the entire thread because that wasn't the point. I already stated to the OP that a good USGI M1 Carbine with modern defensive ammunition would make an excellent choice.
Another poster alluded that the 300 Blackout is nothing more than an updated 30 Carbine cartridge with nearly identical performance. That is clearly not the case so I provided the documentation to prove it.
In any typical "home defense" situations your target will be inside 25 yards (usually MUCH closer). At that range the 30 carbine is COMPARABLE to the 300BLK. Yes the BLK can be loaded hotter than listed but so can the carbine. Either way your looking at 200-300fps difference (AT MOST) speeds with 110gr bullets (pretty negligable at 25 yards). However, if your worried about speed just run the 223Rem in the same platform as the blkout.
Yes the BLKout is more versitle (than the carbine) with a longer OAL, much tighter twist, & slightly more case capacity. To sumerize the advatages you can load it with high BC bullets , WOW.
THe BLK is cool but it's not some things people try to make them. (I mean anyway you look at it the "worthless 30/30" is better) When loaded hot & light, it lacks the trajectory you can get with rounds in same platform (223, 6x45,6.8, etc). When loaded subsonic with the heavies it pretty much runs the energy of a 45acp (you can get that in MUCH smaller package ie 1911) for home defense.
I'm not bashing the 300 Blackout (I have one & waiting a TB 30-P1 for it) it's just a niche cartridge. For home defense the carbine would be fine (as long as it's not a "jammer"). A 300 BLK would be fine, a 45acp, 9mm, 40, 223, 6x45, 30/30, & soo on would be fine if over penetration isn't a problem. However, I feel a shotgun is far & away a better home defense weapon; even though it's ineffective at 300 yards
You must not have read the entire thread because that wasn't the point. I already stated to the OP that a good USGI M1 Carbine with modern defensive ammunition would make an excellent choice.
Another poster alluded that the 300 Blackout is nothing more than an updated 30 Carbine cartridge with nearly identical performance. That is clearly not the case so I provided the documentation to prove it.
Chris_Brice
New member
I don't know how or why this thread drifted into a .30 carbine vs. .300 BA but to be on topic here...
If you're into rifles or pistol caliber carbines for HD then a M1C makes a good choice IF you get one that runs right. Obviously some, namely many of the recent clones, don't. Top that off, the M1C has more style and class than any AR. Including those in .300 BA.
If you're into rifles or pistol caliber carbines for HD then a M1C makes a good choice IF you get one that runs right. Obviously some, namely many of the recent clones, don't. Top that off, the M1C has more style and class than any AR. Including those in .300 BA.
I had a dear friend named, "Scotty" who was a tank commander in the Pacific Theater during WWII. He said that tanks did not have much business over there, especially since they did not have AC.
Lots of crap happens to tanks in Jungle situations, mostly put the occupants on slow cook. When the tank broke down, often the tank crew ended up outside the tank and had to fight hand to hand with zipper heads. Scotty would not hesitate to tell you that he had no trouble killing nips with the carbine, he loved his.
All this talk of trying to improve the carbine with this or that cartridge in a home defense situation is BS.
Lots of crap happens to tanks in Jungle situations, mostly put the occupants on slow cook. When the tank broke down, often the tank crew ended up outside the tank and had to fight hand to hand with zipper heads. Scotty would not hesitate to tell you that he had no trouble killing nips with the carbine, he loved his.
All this talk of trying to improve the carbine with this or that cartridge in a home defense situation is BS.