Raptors,songbirds and the land of the free?

Skinney said it right on. I do understand Chris's passion for the birds. Its his hobby and they are pretty animals. But some folks feel just as passionate about wolves. I have sat in a deer stand qnd watch a single hawk catch 3 quail in less than 30 minutes. I watched an owl staged over a quail roost to find a pile of feathers the next morning. Raptors serve no more purpose in controlling rodent populations than coyotes, bobcats, fox, house cats, or snakes. I hunt some quail farms and the orders are if it will kill a quail it is to be shot on sight. As i said i understand your passion for the BOP but that doesn't mean their population shouldnt be controlled.
 
Raptors take more than the sick or old or injured.

I've seen lots of ducks and some Canada geese fall prey to hawks and eagles. We have huns here and the merlins make short work of them. Not a lot of partridge can fly 75-90 miles an hour.
 
Chris, sorry to tell ya, but anytime I hear someone start out with it's our fault (humans that is) I know they've swallowed the liberal lie, hook, line, and sinker.

My granddaughter told me last week she dropped her English class this semester in College. I asked her why and she said she wanted to write a paper against abortion but the professor told her she wasn't allowed to do that. He said and I quote her report of his statement that "children are parasites". Funny thing, that's exactly what Margaret Sanger of Eugenics and Planned Parenthood fame called them. Just another one of the liberal lies that infect the minds of so many today.

Raptor populations need to be controlled no matter how "sacred" you think they are.

Well, it's Resurrection Day and time to celebrate something that is truly sacred. See Romans 1:23 for more info.
 
Chris Lynn – In 1971, I legally mounted a great horned owl for a customer. I believe in 1972 or so there was a treaty signed with Mexico regarding the white headed crow and raptors were included in the legislation and as a result even the common crow is protected in America. At the World Taxidermy Competition, European taxidermists told me they could legally mount songbirds and raptors for competition ,and customers. I don’t remember which countries they were from but if you could post European legislation that proves this is not so then I will concede that laws may have changed since 2000. As for raptors killing only the sick and weak … give me a break. That is the lie the antis have been spreading about all predators for decades. I suppose that you believe that wolves only kill the sick and weak. If you do, I wouldn’t say so because many on this site will make a fool of you The whole point of my post was to say that all predator populations should be controlled. A few years ago thousands of Great Gray owls migrated down here from Canada starving to death because their food source had dried up .Many owls were found dead .In many European countries people could have mounted them but In the U.S.A. even if 1 million raptors fell dead not one could be legally mounted by a private citizen. What sense does that make. I watched a snow owl take a covey of 14 Hungarians down to 4 after which the fur buyer I worked for took his shotgun and killed the owl. The covey hung around his shop and we enjoyed seeing them until the owl showed up .So bignasty who put their foot in their mouth. The Hungarian population only all but disappeared after the raptor population spiked.as for your scientists read my post on this site 140 years for a cat tag and you’ll see what I think of your scientists .We have a massive population increase of bobcats and our scientists think the cat population is declining and have all but totally protected them. A liberal scientist’s opinion isn’t worth used toilet paper. Our black bear population is out of control and they cut the quota again this year because of their faulty science.It is legal to have private collections of raptors that were mounted before 1972,you needed only to get papers for them by acertian date.I have a friend who is one of the best bird taxidermists in the world who has a large collection of legaly shot, legaly mounted raptors, all legal because of papers recieved after 1972.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris Lynn@ Skinny, maybe you can rewind or replay your post for me in slow motion and put some dramatic music to it and maybe do some commentary at the end... other than that, your post is really just rhetoric.

Guys the fact of the matter is that raptors are not hurting pheasant populations. That is the question at hand. Do they hunt pheasant yes, but not enough to do anything like what we humans are doing them. Am I biased, No, I just like to read and look at hard core scientific data not field observations made by a few guys who see them stooping a pheasant. Please see the link I posted above and also use google. YOu keep saying they take pheasants off of eggs, they would have more nesting if there were more land to lay eggs on. So we go back to my original statement, fix the human problem and you will fix your pheasants, grouse, quail, or any other upland game bird.

I am all for conservation of upland game, but killing a few hawks as you drive by isn't the answer. They are like coyotes, where there is food they will come.. take one out and another will show up. Plus shooting one is a federal offense. You never know who is watching


What does my video editing have to do with anything on this subject?
back to the point...
Let me "replay" my previous post, first by asking what is rhetorical about about a bird of preys talons being used to kill healthy game birds?
Let me shed some light on some "scientific" data, they aren't used to perch on road kill...
Let's look at it like this, a coyotes incisors may be used to eat carrion, they ARE also used to snag up live deer, antelope fawns, elk calves, bovine calves, and a plethora of other prey... What I said was, PREDATORS are NOT only opportunistic, they are HUNTERS and KILLERS of "HEALTHY" prey... what is rhetorical?
I'll tell you what's rhetoric, your mindset based on emotion from a 15yr relationship with the bird.
You say killing a few hawks isn't the answer, they just keep moving back in, like the coyote... Tell me this, why the heck does the state fly over and kill the piss outta dozens of coyotes? After all what's the point? Because a rancher complained? If they're just gonna move back in, why waste our taxpayers dollars burning the evil fossil fuels? lets hire more scientists to give us "factual" data for some "real life" results... NO, IMHO, to many people, pheasants, grouse, geese, partridge, quail, "ARE" a source of income, as are elk, deer, antelope, and cattle, "IF" hawks, raptors, and owls are going to keep moving to the food, there should be NO problem with us treating them like the coyotes of the bird world.
 
when i was very young they had a bounty on eagles,and as a guide in idaho i found out about how many young bighorn sheep they killed,not good.also read elmer keith's book.i haven't seen it but i bet they kill their fair share of fawn's both deer and antelope.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUp
Well, it's Resurrection Day and time to celebrate something that is truly sacred. See Romans 1:23 for more info.

Amen !
 
@ Skinney,

I didn't figure you would get my correlation between your posts and your video editing. I can't make anymore more simple for you so maybe if I put "we are the only ones running this" or " get your can on" you will get it? By the way, your last post still contains nothing but the same word salad based on uninformed views. A great one is " why would they waste tax payers money?" Take a look at our nations debt...Please see the first sentence in this paragraph... Really? How do I debate with someone like you? I can't so I won't as you just aren't on my level. Also, try not use my verbs and adjectives in your replies to prove your point, it kind of takes the flare out of it... there are things called thesauruses, use one. Your misuse of caps is annoying as well. Are you yelling at me or just speaking loudly?Whatever it is you don't get your point across any better when you do that. I just wish I could fast forward through them like I do on your tube Channel ( You like how I brought it back full circle to your video editing and ended with that? You probably won't get that inference either)


@ everyone else, thank you for the stimulating debate. I appreciate your views and thoughts. We seem to be chasing our tails here so I guess it will come down to the laws and those who can persuade the ones who make the laws to keep them in place. If you feel you have a predator problem be it hawks, eagles, coyotes, or humans there are ways to go about getting a depredation permit.

J Mark, I am sorry my first post was harsh. My passion for these birds can be over whelming at times and I guess I didn't go about replying proactivley. I am also a federally licensed raptor propagator. So to say I am passionate about birds of prey is an understatement. I know birds of prey do not always pray on the weak and sick. [beeep] I see them take all sorts of animals in front of me when I fly my own birds. My point was they are opportunist by nature and prefer to take the sick and weak or even the already dead. We need to work on breeding ground control for all upland game species then I think a fair study will be done on Birds of prey. Until then, the federal laws will always be upheld and it will take quite a bit to change those laws. The only way these laws will change is by solid facts and studies done by biologist who went to school to know how to study them. I went to medical school, 14 long years, to learn to do anesthesia. People come to me to go to sleep for surgery but don't ask my advice on how to change an engine and I don't expect them to as I am not an engine expert. The same should be for these studies and right now all of the qualified biologist disagree with masses who have posted in this thread. The problem with the upland game bird numbers has everything to do with what we are doing to their breeding grounds. I have to trust them as others trust me when their lives are in my hands. They are qualified whether we think they are right or not. If we don't like it then one must put in the effort to go back to school to be the expert. Field observations by the general hunter are never going to hold up wether the passionate person feels it should and the same goes for a passionate falconer like myself I have to read what the experts are saying. I for one will hate the day birds of prey will ever be put on a hunting license and I will spend my own hard earned money to make sure that never happens.

I will bow out from this conversation as I feel we are stalemated. This is the dichotomy that life will always throw at us. Thanks again to all of the great debate

Kindest Regards

Chris Lynn
 
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C L,
You finally said something I ageee with.. You aren't at Skinney's level..I think you get my drift.
As far as dumbing it down.. maybe you should read Skinney's posts again and slower, he is trying to give you real life facts..(that means what really happens in nature and the real world) not what scientific data has producecd for us.. I think we all know that isn't as accurate as it could be.. after all anti's producing scientific data is what got the wolves reintroduced, and that seems to working out really well. (that was sarcasm...just so you know).
 
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Originally Posted By: Chris Lynn@ Skinney,

Whatever it is you don't get your point across any better when you do that. I just wish I could fast forward through them like I do on your tube Channel ( You like how I brought it back full circle to your video editing and ended with that? You probably won't get that inference either)



I will bow out from this conversation as I feel we are stalemated. This is the dichotomy that life will always throw at us. Thanks again to all of the great debate

Kindest Regards

Chris Lynn

Ouch, must a hit a nerve? LOL... you DON'T have to watch my youtube channel, let me save you some time and "finger clicking" effort, save yourself from the horrible experience and don't watch
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As far as my caps, or punctuation, I'm no internet hero, nor english grad, "Like you claim" much more over my level.
BTW have a Happy Easter, and keep your raptor away from the easter bunny.
 
I don't believe that birds of.prey only kill the sick in weakens animals I witnessed a hawk killing a baby squirrel the other day and by no means was this squirrel sick or any thing before the hawk killed it it was playing with some other squirrels climbing everywhere on the trees it was just so entertaining to watch these baby squirrels. Then all of a sudden a hawk lands in a tree ne'er bye eyeballing the baby squirrels and then it swoops down and kills one of the baby squirrels that baby squirrel was making a awful noise when that killer was killing it. I just wanted to shoot that hawk so bad. We don't need these things to control the population. They make the animal.suffer before they kill it. Us humans when we kill a squirrel its quick and they don't even feel it. That's just one of the animals they kill. Poor squirrel its sad it had to suffer like that. I regret that I didn't shoot that hawk. I can still hear that baby squirrel suffering in my head. I'm sure it will be back for its brothers and sisters to make them suffer.
 
Every now and then a tree hugger slips in here and well today its pretty obvious.

I agree habitat loss due mainly to agriculture is another serious issue. But to claim birds of prey prefer already dead meat to fresh kills is either a misconception or a blatant lie. Maybe man raised BOP that are dependant on their handlers prefer to eat already dead animals as that is all the know but in stating that one would be admitting they also kill just for sport because thats what they do when they hunt for their handler.
 
Originally Posted By: cawilson82Every now and then a tree hugger slips in here and well today its pretty obvious.

I agree habitat loss due mainly to agriculture is another serious issue. But to claim birds of prey prefer already dead meat to fresh kills is either a misconception or a blatant lie. Maybe man raised BOP that are dependant on their handlers prefer to eat already dead animals as that is all the know but in stating that one would be admitting they also kill just for sport because thats what they do when they hunt for their handler.
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Hi Caw,

no they are like any other predator, if its fresh road kill or something that just died and they watched it die, they will hop off of their perch and eat it. Its easy and less energy spent to eat it. Less energy spent the longer they can go without hunting again.This is why almost 80% of fist year raptors die, they get hit by cars or electrocuted. I guess you could call it a raptor control program already in place
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Also, I will be out hunting with my birds and they will take any opportunity to get on something that looks edible. I have had to transfer them off many dead things.
It's no fun to have one of your birds dragging around a rotten carcass . If you would like to learn more about Birds of prey and how we hunt them have a look here www.NAFEX.net. The North American Falcones Exchange, It a forum I own. Come on over to the dark side
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Happy easter to all, and Skinny Happy easter to you as well, my jack rabbit hawk is up for the season so the bunny is safe this year
smile.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Chris Lynn

J Mark, I am sorry my first post was harsh. My passion for these birds can be over whelming at times and I guess I didn't go about replying proactivley. I am also a federally licensed raptor propagator. So to say I am passionate about birds of prey is an understatement. I know birds of prey do not always pray on the weak and sick. [beeep] I see them take all sorts of animals in front of me when I fly my own birds.

Chris Lynn

Chris
I believe your "passion" for these birds has made you blind. Then you admit they take all sorts of animals in front of you, even healthy ones. That is fine if you love your birds and I agree the laws are what they are, but you come across as a tree hugging jacka$$. I don't care what you do for a living or how long you went to school. I also know that a lot of the so called "experts" in this country have an agenda, as you seem to, so I have to question the "hard" science.

Happy Easter everyone.
 
CL Maybe you can expand your well informed rhetoric to include raccoons and their impact on ground nesters?

My experience (and data) shows that the raccoon does more damage to the pheasant population than any other predator. The hawk and owl population explosion since protection only exacerbates the problem.

How about educating all of us about this phenominon.

PS Pheasants are a farm land, border habitat bird. Granted, habitat plays a part but is not the end all solution to this issue with GROUND nesting game birds.
 
There aren't enough sick and weak animals in my county to feed 1 predator, much less hundreds. To think that they are the only food source is kind of silly.
 
I never have saw a hawk eat a dead animal heck when I was hunting my buddys bait site I sat there and watched a hawk swoop down and get a fox squirrel. Didn't even try to eat the dead deer we had as bait. So obvisouly they don't eat dead animals unless its there last option. This was a red tail hawk
 
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